Other feedback for Sigma Golf

+1000 LIKE!!!

nutty88 wrote:

Club fitting is both an art and a science. It is science because of the different specs of club heads, shafts, swing speed, smash factor, launch angle, etc.. It is an art because the club fitter needs to be experienced enough. Having said that, to try out most of the shafts available just to get the best results is not a good piece of art IMHO. Too much trial and error really and the golfer may not have the stamina to get the optimum results. I would think a good club fitter should be able to zoom in to just a few shafts (within the budget of the golfer as well) and the most suited shaft can then be determined unless the golfer is inconsistent in his golf swing. Just like the zeroing of rifle during our NS days. You can never zero the weapon for a lousy shooter and I applaud the club fitter to turn down the business for golfers who are really inconsistent. Of course we have come across club fitter who believes that beginners should be fitted but that is a separate discussion altogether.

so what exactly is the other feedback?


Just because seb opens up and leaves his comfort zone to share with us his experience and game he gets judged and flamed. I honestly don't see other fitters sharing with me their daily golf experience and fitting process with me. They just give me numbers all day long.


Not siding anyone but to the very first post he said "sorry" dude. what more do you want from him on FACEBOOK.

after all the positive and negative feedbacks for this fitter... will there be a separate thread or poll to see if existing customers will still visit him .... & especially those who have never been there b4??

bryanachong wrote:

so what exactly is the other feedback?


Just because seb opens up and leaves his comfort zone to share with us his experience and game he gets judged and flamed. I honestly don't see other fitters sharing with me their daily golf experience and fitting process with me. They just give me numbers all day long.


Not siding anyone but to the very first post he said "sorry" dude. what more do you want from him on FACEBOOK.

+1

nutty88 wrote:

Club fitting is both an art and a science. It is science because of the different specs of club heads, shafts, swing speed, smash factor, launch angle, etc.. It is an art because the club fitter needs to be experienced enough. Having said that, to try out most of the shafts available just to get the best results is not a good piece of art IMHO. Too much trial and error really and the golfer may not have the stamina to get the optimum results. I would think a good club fitter should be able to zoom in to just a few shafts (within the budget of the golfer as well) and the most suited shaft can then be determined unless the golfer is inconsistent in his golf swing. Just like the zeroing of rifle during our NS days. You can never zero the weapon for a lousy shooter and I applaud the club fitter to turn down the business for golfers who are really inconsistent. Of course we have come across club fitter who believes that beginners should be fitted but that is a separate discussion altogether.

I'm emphatically with you on this one Nutty88.

Helpful well balanced input.

I say that because there are many golfers on GR (with more joining each day) who have no idea what fitting is all about, playing with just off-the-rack clubs. One of the reasons they are here is to learn. And it can be a challenge to cut through the promotional material and 'other' feedback if one has no idea where to start.

What we as seniors and the more experienced can do is help our newer brothers and sisters gather a more balanced view to make a well informed decision should they take that first step towards seeing a club fitter.

Do we have to help? No.

It's like charity, you do it out of the own goodness of your heart.

Look back, why did we ourselves join GR in the first place?

Pizzaman wrote:

after all the positive and negative feedbacks for this fitter... will there be a separate thread or poll to see if existing customers will still visit him .... & especially those who have never been there b4??

If everyone in the room can see the elephant, be it black, white, or even gray, there probably is no need for someone to voice it out.

It's still your decision if you want to ride the elephant or not.

Or roll the dice 

Vinny wrote:

Or roll the dice 

oh please!!!!! not the boh liao roll dice again? Go roll in the positive feedback thread. HAHAHAHA

wahahaha.... here we go again, same old shit again....

aiyo... so simple, boycott him lor if u dun like him...

Worst case, jio him 1-2-1 lor, tio bo...

But is it necessary???

Its called the Yin and Yang. When Yin is started, Yang must be there to counterbalance. 

nutty88 wrote:

Its called the Yin and Yang. When Yin is started, Yang must be there to counterbalance. 

lol... good one mate...

There are also many types of customers, some like to try different shafts, some fix on certain brand, some go for numbers on trackman, some limited budget, some no budget, some test only and buy 2nd hand from forum and so on. Some customers swing not too sound or dun know what is wrong or don't know how to explain to fitter clearly. So end of the day, you can't please everyone. Just go to the fitter you find most comfortable with. What you think is trial and error maybe ideal for someone who is interested in trying out shafts and like to see numbers on trackman. Give him a break and concentrate on our golf swing better.

nutty88 wrote:

Club fitting is both an art and a science. It is science because of the different specs of club heads, shafts, swing speed, smash factor, launch angle, etc.. It is an art because the club fitter needs to be experienced enough. Having said that, to try out most of the shafts available just to get the best results is not a good piece of art IMHO. Too much trial and error really and the golfer may not have the stamina to get the optimum results. I would think a good club fitter should be able to zoom in to just a few shafts (within the budget of the golfer as well) and the most suited shaft can then be determined unless the golfer is inconsistent in his golf swing. Just like the zeroing of rifle during our NS days. You can never zero the weapon for a lousy shooter and I applaud the club fitter to turn down the business for golfers who are really inconsistent. Of course we have come across club fitter who believes that beginners should be fitted but that is a separate discussion altogether.

This argument is true only if the fitter is a non-profit organization.
Businesses work on profit and margins.

On the above complain that someone got fitted with plenty of shafts. I actually say that its a good thing.
Why? coz u can always choose something of lower budget and performs similarly.
I rather have more choices then kena pushed a $500 shaft just because the fitter says give me the best numbers. The fitter might just be trying to push a product he has distributorship or has higher margin.

Different shafts perform differently for everyone. If a fitter just relies on the number given by the manufacturers or take for granted that he has "experience" then i'll be very worried.

Disclaimer: have never been to Sigma, but really some of the complaints here are just ridiculous.

Different strokes for different folks ~ as it is, a POSITIVE "Roll Dice" Feedback Thread already exists on the fitter concerned in this forum, thus I believe all of us here are entitled to different feedback / life experiences about this fitter be it positive or negative, so long as its not slanderous nor fraudulent..........   

@DLWL, why would the argument be true only if the fitter is a non-profit organization? Sorry but I really don't get it, so please enlighten me.

If a fitter is seriously non-profit, he will only recommend the most suitable and least costly to the client. in the perfect world. 

But businesses are all driven by profit and cost.
If a Xcaliber shaft vs Diamana shaft give u 3yard difference but cost 200 more. A normal sensible consumer would choose Xcaliber, brand and design aside. Based purely on numbers.

a fitter driven by profit will only let u test Diamana (becoz he makes 100profit, *just a arbitrary number btw), but won't let you test Xcaliber (coz only makes 20 profit), though the performance difference is only 3 yards. Would a normal consumer know? Probably not. Unless u read a hell lot or test ALL the shafts available, how would you know? All businesses work like this.

Fitting means aligning the specs to the person. Not the specs to the "estimate". For example, ur tailor measure ur shoulder and "agar" your arm length based on the norms. By experience he may get it right, but seldom that is true. So if your fitter fit you based on 3-4 shafts, it will probably end up near the norm, but then again. I am no fitter, I wouldn't know. Just using my cow sense.

not all low launch low spin shaft performs the same as specs suggest. The V2 tour flight balloons for me, contrary to suggested specs.

So I feel that testing more shafts only narrows down the possibilities. If it is too taxing, just tell him you feel like spending money and just give u a shaft already. Coz I think he is just narrowing down the options for you. If being thorough is being un-artful, then I prefer my fitter to be thorough, rather than sweet talk me with artful words.

Once again. Nvr been to Sigma, Just couldn't help but voice my opinion.

nutty88 wrote:

@DLWL, why would the argument be true only if the fitter is a non-profit organization? Sorry but I really don't get it, so please enlighten me.

I think the point is, Seb is running a biz, not a charity
He is entitled to turn away work
In the r7 irons reshaft situation, he said sorry, can't do it.
Can we fault him for that if he feels his time is better spent, eg fitting customer new set of Miura?

I think we need to differentiate between
- club assembler who just do what golfers specifically want (eg shorten a shaft, expand a grip, etc) --> I go to golfhouse club fittet for this kinda work
- club fitter who do not believe the golfers know what's best for them and prefer to go thru the whole exercise of fitting --> I will go to fitters like sigma, bfg, wizGolf, Ivan etc

DLWL wrote:

a fitter driven by profit will only let u test Diamana (becoz he makes 100profit, *just a arbitrary number btw), but won't let you test Xcaliber (coz only makes 20 profit), though the performance difference is only 3 yards. Would a normal consumer know? Probably not. Unless u read a hell lot or test ALL the shafts available, how would you know? All businesses work like

And by that u will mean most club fitters will recommend products that will suit the customer best and also achieve sizable profit?

I also think a sensible fitter will start by asking what budget the customer can work with

Not everyone got appetite for $ 1k crazy shaft 
Some people think a $400 fubuki is good enough
Some people think a $200 adila also can do

andrew-golf wrote:

DLWL wrote:

a fitter driven by profit will only let u test Diamana (becoz he makes 100profit, *just a arbitrary number btw), but won't let you test Xcaliber (coz only makes 20 profit), though the performance difference is only 3 yards. Would a normal consumer know? Probably not. Unless u read a hell lot or test ALL the shafts available, how would you know? All businesses work like

And by that u will mean most club fitters will recommend products that will suit the customer best and also achieve sizable profit?

In laws of economics, what you pointed out is true. But that is taking the extreme point

Human nature and relationship plays a part too in business. Business people always offer good service and some discounts, to entice customers to return.

Clearly from the feedback, that is not Sigma's modus operandi. Then again what I gather is he provides direct and honest feedback. Also not wrong if people look for that.

Dats why some people swear by Sigma, and some swear off Sigma. Isn't it?
Some like his directness and thorough methods, while others like short and sweet fitting experience.

but ALL fitters work based on returns and profit. Even if they appear to give sweeteners.
Let me know which fitter makes loss, I got things to buy =)

Like some bros here mentioned,
If you don't like his style, dun go.
If you suspect he is fraudulent, go make a police report. Accusations online has soiled his reputation without the rest of the forum members being clear of the outcome or truth. Its very misleading. I have heard of other reputable fitters also accused of fraud via some of my encounters with forummers, then that forummer proceed to tell me he has contacts to get cheaper deals. Makes me wonder if that is some conspiracy going on.

Hmm.. I for one would rather have more options to try. I like to get hands on. Not just see numbers and stats. "Feel" is very important. most of the times, shafts dun "feel" like their spec states on paper. 

There are so many brands that produce similar kickpoints, weight, torque. etc. Compare 4-5 shafts with similar specs, i'm sure they'd all feel diff!

@DLWL, thanks for the clarification. I am fully aware that Sigma is running a profit organization. I did mention that shaft selection or club fittings for that matter has to be within the budget of the golfer so that we can limit the selction to certain range of products. If one's limit is 300 but the club fitter recommends a 500 shaft, then it might be a case of higher margins. On the other hand, if one doesn't have a fixed budget, by all means go try out every shafts in the market to determine the best suited shaft for his swing characteristics. But is it really necessary to try as many shafts as available? If the club fitter knows your taste, budget and what might work for you, then he should zoom in to certain shaft selections and not trial and error till you find the right shaft?

@nutty88. I understand you point bro. But like wad Abadan mentioned, feel is important. Fubuki K and Matrix white tie performs and priced similarly, but can feel quite different to different people.

Also if I set my budget at 300. Most of the time, the fitters usually offer me those 300 category shafts, den work downwards the price curve. 

there are plenty of shafts in the $100-300, what if I set my eyes for a 100 after trying all? If I don't try all, how would I know?
I understand that it is a tedious process, but it is not poor fitting in my opinion if he wants to let you have a try for all. Though that may not be what people want. Just his style of fitting.

Like going to a tailor, I like to have input and not depend solely on my tailor. The tailors nowadays like to make just nice cuttings. Smart looking but no leeway. Whereas I like to have 0.5in more on each measurement for comfort.

yes fitting suppose to narrow down to "that" shaft. People like me and Abadan like to try more shafts and perhaps others don't. You can simply tell the fitter or "tailor" how you like things to be done and see if he can give you the service you want.

If not I guess we are all free to walk away. =)

DLWL wrote:

If a fitter is seriously non-profit, he will only recommend the most suitable and least costly to the client. in the perfect world. 

But businesses are all driven by profit and cost.
If a Xcaliber shaft vs Diamana shaft give u 3yard difference but cost 200 more. A normal sensible consumer would choose Xcaliber, brand and design aside. Based purely on numbers.

a fitter driven by profit will only let u test Diamana (becoz he makes 100profit, *just a arbitrary number btw), but won't let you test Xcaliber (coz only makes 20 profit), though the performance difference is only 3 yards. Would a normal consumer know? Probably not. Unless u read a hell lot or test ALL the shafts available, how would you know? All businesses work like this.

I feel this has nothing to do with profit or non-profit org

using the same scenario, the fitter can simply not carry xcaliber or any cheap shaft with low margin. And let you try all the shafts he carry. He can be thorough if he has enough shafts for you to try.. but how many is enough to be thorough??

weesern wrote:

DLWL wrote:

If a fitter is seriously non-profit, he will only recommend the most suitable and least costly to the client. in the perfect world. 

But businesses are all driven by profit and cost.
If a Xcaliber shaft vs Diamana shaft give u 3yard difference but cost 200 more. A normal sensible consumer would choose Xcaliber, brand and design aside. Based purely on numbers.

a fitter driven by profit will only let u test Diamana (becoz he makes 100profit, *just a arbitrary number btw), but won't let you test Xcaliber (coz only makes 20 profit), though the performance difference is only 3 yards. Would a normal consumer know? Probably not. Unless u read a hell lot or test ALL the shafts available, how would you know? All businesses work like this.

I feel this has nothing to do with profit or non-profit org

using the same scenario, the fitter can simply not carry xcaliber or any cheap shaft with low margin. And let you try all the shafts he carry. He can be thorough if he has enough shafts for you to try.. but how many is enough to be thorough??

Exactly my point. How many is enough?
So for some bros. 4-5 is good. For others the more the merrier.

Is there a formula? I dunnoe, maybe the others fitters can give us some insights?
But to call thorough and comprehensive trying a poor form of fitting is where my discomfort lie.

Just different forms of art for different forms of artist.

If you don't like Picasso, dun buy. But dun go and say his art is ugly.