10.5 vs 9.5 degrees Driver. What is its relationship with distance?

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So are you gonna mark my answer?

S70B, I finally read the Tom Wishon article you referred to earlier:

http://www.iseekgolf.com/clubfittingandrepairs/7313-angle-of-attack-its-role-in-fitting.

I have read this before and could not agree more with what he is saying, that basically with a consistent impact position on the face, a downward (steep) AoA produces a lower launch angle (and more spin) than a upwcard AoA.

Impact location also has a affect on LA, and it is true that an excessively steep AoA can result in impact at the top of the face when the ball is teed up, which is why most golfers who swing like this tee the ball low with their Driver to avoid pop-us. The lower they tee the ball the more likely they are to hit down which only compounds the problem further. There will come a point where they can't tee the ball any lower with their Driver and impact location will eventually move down the face bacause the ball is almost on the turf, which is when they will find they can't get the ball airborne because the excessively steep AoA will launch the ball way too low.

This is what you found at the Callaway fitting, that hitting up on the ball will move impact down the face, correct? And to hit up on the ball is much easier to down when the swing path is from in to out.

But we can't deny physics and say that a downward attack will launch the ball higher than an upward attack when impact location remains the same for both.

I'm really hoping you agree with me (and Tom Wishon) on this.

Sorry a typo in the third last paragraph. Should be:

This is what you found at the Callaway fitting, that hitting up on the ball will move impact down the face, correct? And to hit up on the ball is much easier to do when the swing path is from in to out.

Very informative. Looking at the chart, the one with steeper AOA for driver generates higher spin. So higher spin leads to higher ball flight right, even though the launch angle is lower. Very confusing leh... So if we were to change this to the wedge shot, does this same theory apply???

But luckily i not so pro.... just hit the ball can liao... I hope those who can talk alot of theories can play as well.... I heard last time on this forum, there is this guy who goes around the forum writing theories and giving lessons.. but in fact, he can't really play the game.

Googie, for our sake, I hope you stop going round in circles.

Did we ever debate about impact position being the same in the 1st place?

You said that a steeper AOA produces lower launch angle. I didn't disagree and in fact, I led you to that article.

I mentioned that in theory, that is the case BUT when you are fitting amateurs instead of pros, you cannot solely rely on that info to fit a driver cos most people when they come down steep will hit the upper half of the clubface more often than not, even popups. Going down in loft (which is what most will do cos they think they launch the ball high with 10.5*) will not solve the problem and that was why I recommended ppl to go find a pro to work on their setup and a proper way to swing.

I also mentioned that when fitting amateurs, how many non professionals and non-top amateurs do you know that have a flat left wrist and solid impact positions? How many you know deloft the club like what Charles Howell III does? I would gamble to estimate that at least 80% of the individuals in the 15-24hdcp range add a little loft at impact and have some sort of scooping or cupping motion up till post impact. Even I did and still do it once in a while when my ball striking goes a little awry. Which was why I also mentioned that fitting differs from individual to indivdual and using Wishon's theory as the 'gospel truth' will not be totally accurate.

Imagine a fitter trying to tell a 24 hdcp with a steep swing that has hit a few pop-ups or almost-skied shots he needs more loft after he sees his LA and flight pattern. He will have a very hard time convincing that guy when swing mechanics and explanations are not thorough enough and that individual probably will not bring his business to that fitter if he isn't very convincing.

Then when you compare numbers, pls use apples v apples, not apples v oranges. Using the Driver v PW analogy, you have to keep the variables constant. How you hit a normal PW shot differs so much from how you would hit a driver so don't use those numbers and try to convince ppl when you set up differently and swing at the ball differently. Don't worry, I promised to do the test and I will be back to report on the numbers whatever they are. For your sake, I will use an old driver and do an additional test of setting up the driver like how I would hit a punch shot and give you the results ok?

Finally, when I disagreed with your analogy about out to in being excessively steep and draws are hit by coming in shallower, I posted my test results about how my out to in swing then still wasn't steep enuff to achieve a proper downward strike.

For draws, I hope you can tell Tiger something he doesn't know. Either he is trying to hit it into those bunkers on the right or that was a shank with a divot.



Sometimes, theory, physics or whatever is written on the internet doesn't really translate into real life but who am I to tell you since you seem to have it all figured out with all the nitpicking?

I also hope selective reading isn't one of your hobbies too.

Check this out.. this is very very cool !

duffader wrote:

Very informative. Looking at the chart, the one with steeper AOA for driver generates higher spin. So higher spin leads to higher ball flight right, even though the launch angle is lower. Very confusing leh... So if we were to change this to the wedge shot, does this same theory apply???

But luckily i not so pro.... just hit the ball can liao... I hope those who can talk alot of theories can play as well.... I heard last time on this forum, there is this guy who goes around the forum writing theories and giving lessons.. but in fact, he can't really play the game.

Glad you find this informative Duffader.

You are right, a steeper AoA produces more spin and a climbing ball flight regardless of the club being used. The ball's descent will be more vertical with less roll - not what you want if you are looking for maximum distance with your drives.

That's why we setup differently with a driver and a wedge. A driver setup (ball forward, hands level, weight right) is designed to produce a shallow AoA and a wedge setup (ball centred, hands and weight left) will produce a steeper AoA.

And don't worry, I am not an "all theory and no game" kind of guy.

Googie, it seems your ball striking is more consistent than your stand on what a steep angle of attack does.

Your first post said this:

"Are you sure a steep angle of attack (normally associated with an out-to-in swing path) produces a HIGH launch angle? On the contrary I believe most proficient fitters here will attest that a steep angle of attack (ie hitting down) produces a LOWER launch angle."

Now you say this:

"You are right, a steeper AoA produces more spin and a climbing ball flight regardless of the club being used. The ball's descent will be more vertical with less roll - not what you want if you are looking for maximum distance with your drives."


So which is it? A steeper angle of attack keeps the ball low, or does it launch the ball high?

Aiyoh Birdman, you seem to be confusing Launch Angle with how high the ball flies downrange.

Launch Angle only refers to the initial trajectory of the ball off the clubface, measured in degrees. Think of the first few feet the ball travels after impact. Launch Angle does not refer to the height the ball reaches at its apex downrange which is a result of the amount of backspin.

A low launch can create a ballooning ball flight because the downward AoA creates a lot of backspin. Backspin causes lift, so the ball will climb excessively before it drops. Think of how an aeroplane takes off and this is what a low launch and high spin ballflight will look like (low to begin with, then climbing higher)

Conversely a high launch angle can cause a low downrange flight because of lack of backspin. In fact a ball hit with too little backspin (excessively upwards AoA with a driver) will not get very high off the ground.

Remember the adage "golf is a game of opposites". Hit down (ie low launch) makes the ball fly high (because of backspin).

CHIM !!!!

this game already so complicated already ...

today then i know got so many terms ... simi Launch Angle , AoA ...

Fairwind wrote:

Check this out.. this is very very cool !

many golfers in the video have 何仙姑 leg movement ...

GooGie wrote:

Aiyoh Birdman, you seem to be confusing Launch Angle with how high the ball flies downrange.

Remember the adage "golf is a game of opposites". Hit down (ie low launch) makes the ball fly high (because of backspin).

Yah, this is one confused bird . In fact more confused than before since your above statement again contradicts your earlier statement about a punch shot.

GooGie wrote:

"Isn't the punch shot (where we hit down more so than a regular swing) intended to keep the flight LOW?"

Confusion is like a disease, it's infectious.

Sibeh lost. Damn bloody technical.

What happened to 'hit hard, look up'?!

asahi wrote:

What happened to 'hit hard, look up'?!

He having HH training session!

Is that "confused one in order to convince" tactic???

Like they alway say... If u can't convince them, confuse them...

Aiyo, the whole thing look so complicated but I concluded that,

Someone is picking for bone in an egg, someone is trying to share and someone is trying to stir.

BUT one thing for sure, all are

zhenxua wrote:

Fairwind wrote:

Check this out.. this is very very cool !

many golfers in the video have 何仙姑 leg movement ...

ehh.. sure or not? they all don't knock knees like you do leh..

where got? I find my swing look like Sam Snead leh

Check this out... all about accuracy!!

Part 2 to understand all abt the swing

isnt that moe norman's swing?

Modern swing is 2 planes. Single plane swing promotes alignment which equates to accuracy.

Moe norman became famous becos of ball striking capabilities. In a par 4, he tee off with a 9 iron n then a driver on the fairway n he got it on the green. He also used the same tee for 7 yrs without breaking it.

In my assessment, it is moe norman's swing plane couple with arnold palmer bodyworks.