10.5 vs 9.5 degrees Driver. What is its relationship with distance?

Ssquirrel wrote:

Wah very cheem but educational thread. I learn a lot of new terms like de-lofted impact position; angle of attack, etc.. Words that I will have to google later.

How to find out what my impact position is (lofted/delofted) and also what my angle of attack is? Must use what trackman thingy ah? Then how to go about changing my impact position and angle of attack?

You find it educational? I find it confusing. Why do we have to de-loft impact position? Can't we use a stronger loft club? Why must chook pattern? Isn't a normal swing with straight ball flight already too hard to achieve?

As in the great game that we play JC, different strokes for different folks lor.

Good to see we have a lively debate going on.

This is my take on de lofting at impact

If your 6 iron has 30* of loft (angle the face is tilted up when the shaft is vertical) a de lofted impact position means at impact if you could measure the loft of your 6 iron it would measure less than 30*. The only way to do this is to have your hands ahead of the ball at impact, which is what every good player in the history of the game has done. It is also the only way to hit the small ball before the big ball as we were rightly told!

This is also why when we hit a 6 iron well (or any iron for that matter) the ball will be launched lower than the measured loft of the clubhead.

Watch the tour events on tv that show trackman data. Pros will launch their irons far lower than the loft on the club. They will launch a 6 iron around 20* or so, maybe less even though the loft of their 6 iron is closer to 30*.

A driver is slightly different because the angle of attack is more level or slightly up. That's why a 10* driver can launch the ball higher than 10* (because the path is shallow/up).

Hmm...this thread is getting interesting ..

GooGie wrote:

Good to see we have a lively debate going on.

This is my take on de lofting at impact

If your 6 iron has 30* of loft (angle the face is tilted up when the shaft is vertical) a de lofted impact position means at impact if you could measure the loft of your 6 iron it would measure less than 30*. The only way to do this is to have your hands ahead of the ball at impact, which is what every good player in the history of the game has done. It is also the only way to hit the small ball before the big ball as we were rightly told!

This is also why when we hit a 6 iron well (or any iron for that matter) the ball will be launched lower than the measured loft of the clubhead.

Watch the tour events on tv that show trackman data. Pros will launch their irons far lower than the loft on the club. They will launch a 6 iron around 20* or so, maybe less even though the loft of their 6 iron is closer to 30*.

A driver is slightly different because the angle of attack is more level or slightly up. That's why a 10* driver can launch the ball higher than 10* (because the path is shallow/up).

its called forward shaft lean....

Interesting and confusing... but more like talking about the first 15%-20% of the ball trajectory. Cos eventually, the ball will still be high right? or else how to land soft on the greens?

Yes that's another term for it. Thank you Eiji.

Dunno why you quote me the 1st time then avoid the rest of it.

So what will happen if you hit your PW with zero shaft lean, ball position off the left heel and 60% of your weight on the BACK foot, both with +ve and -ve AOA...that is ie, come down steep v swing thru shallow, with a TEED UP ball? What will the results be? Just like how you would hit a driver shot.

OK la, since you so dodgy on my replies, I go test it out at BFG and post the results ok?

If I am wrong, I also will have learnt something but of course, it should be a sample of over a bucket of balls and hopefully no ceilings or lights will be taken out.

Looking forward to your test result Rex, me also eagerly wanting to learn

Walau...... sometime I wonder shall we play like the pro?
Without the swing speed of pro, without their near to perfect swing mechanic, we still need to deloft the club!!! WTF!!!
I am starting to hate golf...... Can it be more simple and enjoyable?

S70B, sorry not trying to dodge anyone, just busy as usually the case on a Friday when we all want to go home, so cannot been able to reply to everyone!

I would like to know your definition of a steep attack angle.

To me, a steep swing is when the clubs travelling vertically down too sharply into the ball and produces a rather deep divot or pop up drive, probably because of an excessive out to in swing path. Describes most slices and probably 80% of golfers.

A shallow angle of attack would be when the club is travelling more horizontal into the ball, result of a more in to out swing path. Good for high launching draw and long drives!

Now if I were to set up with my PW with the ball forward and weight right (like a driver) I would probably hit the ground a foot before the ball haha. If I did make decent contact the ball would launch extremely high because by way of leaning back and ball forward will automatically shallow my angle of attack.

Maybe my swing is just wierd and I should quit the game haha

hmm i keep getting reminded by a lot of pros, coaches that i should think less, and just swing the damn golf club.

for some ppl, its abt less books more greens....

experience is not a overrated commodity...

some of the "uncles" i play with dun give a hoot abt AOA lah, steep swing lah, flat swing lah.... n can still whoop my a$$

Don't worry if you can't replicate what I mentioned, then I will try my best.

I don't agree with your analogy about steep swings being excessively out to in and shallow swings being in to out. Here is why.


I have changed my swing the past year. I did post some videos on and off but never into finer details what I worked on with various coaches when I was in USA.

Here is the info and sorry if its a little too long winded for most.

A little background - Circa mid 2008, I decided that I wanted a fade to be my preferred ball flight after watching TW and KJ Choi live controlling their ball flights beautifully at Torrey Pines. This was what I did to effect the change:

- 'Weaken' my left hand grip a touch. Also gripping it more in the palm rather than the fingers. This helped me promote holding off the clubface a hair longer post impact.

- Slight open stance. My shoulders remain almost square and level while my forearms, feet and hips point slightly left of target.

- Weight more on the front foot

- Hand position slightly back instead of ahead.





I played golf like that for a good year+ with satisfactory results. After getting on a full six hr fitting session at Fuzion Golf in Florida with a very detailed trackman analysis, my data for a 6 iron was that my swing path was deemed slightly out to in (about -ve 1.5 on avg as how I planned to swing it) and AOA of around -2.5* which was SHALLOW compared to PGA Tour averages of ard 4*).

I didn't hit very many wild shots playin like that.

Fast Forward to today. I overhauled my swing as I realised mid of last year that a draw was my natural ballflight after a lesson and some casual talk with a couple of mini-tour pros.

- Went back to a stronger left hand grip
- Setup square instead of open
- Weight more evenly distributed.
- Head position back instead of inline with the ball
- Left arm in line with the shaft
- Hands position forward of the ball slightly.
- More Spine tilt with higher left shoulder instead of level.



Believe me that even with a 5 iron, I hit this shot pretty high and my swing thought was to hit down on it, not sweep it off the ground. The shot was still a draw if you were wondering.

I did get back to trying to find out what my numbers now were when I was at golf shops and they had their simulators (flightscope) on. It was surprising that even after the Callaway fitting and also swing adjustments, I was back to hitting it slightly with a downward strike ~ -ve 1* on average.



Btw, that driver shot was also a Draw, mid-high launch and I do think I was shallow into the strike. How can I achieve that with an in to out swing but steeper AOA (-ve AOA) as per what you described it that was 'supposed' to be?

So you can see why I don't buy your arguments nor think they hold water, nevermind Hogan or Toski or watever. I don't think they had a Trackman back then and if you are in the know of the new ball flight laws, then you will know that the new found data found that you hit draws with an open clubface (but thats another debate altogether).

Just for the record, here is how I hit my 125yd PW shot. Setup is different from how I did with the other 2.



Nevertheless, I will still go do the experiment just because I am curious with the exact numbers. Even if I am proven otherwise, I think everyone gets to learn here.

Sorry if this is too long for everyone.

S70B.. this is really insightful. thanks.. With such clarity and awareness.. i can bring my game to a different awareness level.

A downward strike is deemed a negative or positive AoA?

Nice swing there s70, Good footwork

Googie, r u asking becos u dun know or something else?

A downward strike with the irons will always register negative. PGA Tour averages -4*. Mine registered -2.5* on avg initially and that is a shallower downward strike than what they do.



Thanks guys for your nice words. Couple of questions to me on how to know what is your natural ballflight.

Well, its the type where you grew up with the game playing with and had success with when called upon to hit a ball under pressure. I'm not talking about beginners who start slicing with their drivers n accept that slice as your natural ball flight. Its the flight after you have had lessons and found that when you need to hit a clutch shot, that flight will be your 'go-to' shot.

Its also partially true about TW's struggles of late. His natural flight since he was a successful amateur was always a fade. Hank Haney got him to try and start hitting more draws with that Haney swing and it gave him more trouble than success.

You can watch the Dubai Desert 2nd round. He still struggles abit hitting a draw with the now-Foley swing even though he played a magnificent round.

If you watch Ernie Els, his natural ballflight will be a draw and when called upon to hit a fade, his success rate will be slightly less compared to shaping it the other way round.

GooGie wrote:

A downward strike is deemed a negative or positive AoA?

Errrr?? uphill lie( +5 to +10 degree lagi positive AoA) or down hill lie (- 5 to -10 lagi negative AoA))

Putter how har ??

I was confused when you said your aoa was -2.5 but PGA tour average 4* I suppose you meant -4*.

GooGie wrote:

I was confused when you said your aoa was -2.5 but PGA tour average 4* I suppose you meant -4*.

he said -4*

eiji wrote:

GooGie wrote:

I was confused when you said your aoa was -2.5 but PGA tour average 4* I suppose you meant -4*.

he said -4*

His post at 6:02pm was 4*, not -4*

GooGie wrote:

Damn, I want a refund for all my instrction books (Hogan, Leadbetter, Toski, Woods etc) at home cos they all tell me to hit down on the ball with a steeper angle of attck to launch the ball low. They also say to launch it high I need to lean on my back foot and sweep the ball up of the turf.

Damn, how could I have been so stupid to believe these guys?

Eh mr "Traxkman" I guess I'm not allowed typo like u is it?

S70B wrote:

GooGie wrote:

Damn, I want a refund for all my instrction books (Hogan, Leadbetter, Toski, Woods etc) at home cos they all tell me to hit down on the ball with a steeper angle of attck to launch the ball low. They also say to launch it high I need to lean on my back foot and sweep the ball up of the turf.

Damn, how could I have been so stupid to believe these guys?

Eh mr "Traxkman" I guess I'm not allowed typo like u is it?

Time to get a refund for the English textbooks as well.

Nothing wrong with typos. Was only trying to establish whether negative AoA was correct or not.