I try a go at this. I would say the #1 is natural cos our arms should naturally swing in a slight arc, unless body is perfectly horizontal to ground and arms and hands drop perfectly perpendicular down from shoulders. Otherwise, it seems natural to me that swings should always be slightly open on back, and slightly close on follow-thru.
DGman wrote:
someone got to get the first question right first mah...
which is natural and which are manipulative?
what are the consequences of utilising a manipulative putting stroke?
DGman
vyvy Senior Golfer
Posts : 353 Join date : 2009-11-30 Age : 41 Location : The sunny island
1. gate back gate trough (commonly know as open and shut putt) 2. gate back straight through (open and straight puttt) 3. gate straight straight through (straight and straight putt) 4. gate straight close trough (straight and shut putt)
of these 4 types of putting, only 1 is naturally and the other 3 are what we termed as manipulative. Do you know which is natural?
of course this is also the start of the putting woes, you want to know why right???
to be continued cos got to go to work liao.
DGman
For me i think it's no 4 is most natural. But which way is the correct one?
eiji Course Marshal
Posts : 6193 Join date : 2009-08-22 Age : 43 Location : Training
1. gate back gate trough (commonly know as open and shut putt) 2. gate back straight through (open and straight puttt) 3. gate straight straight through (straight and straight putt) 4. gate straight close trough (straight and shut putt)
of these 4 types of putting, only 1 is naturally and the other 3 are what we termed as manipulative. Do you know which is natural?
of course this is also the start of the putting woes, you want to know why right???
to be continued cos got to go to work liao.
DGman
I think 1st is natural as the hands swing naturally in a small arc. But personally I prefer method 3 as I imagine my shoulder triangle as a pendulum and rely on the shoulder pivoting motion to stroke the club straight back and thru.....taking the hand out of the equation. I find that when my hands get over active, I will close the clubface upon impact and miss putts to the left......
Awaiting your advise Dgman. Thanks.
ChrisD Incredibly Active Golfer
Posts : 3469 Join date : 2009-11-04 Age : 49 Location : Live beside the King
Once again, putting per round doesn't really justify how well you putt. Sometimes I can do 30 to 40 putts for 18 holes. Never go beyond 30 but doesn't means I don't putt well. I feel that the problem with me is on how to read the lines. Putting to where I intended and near the pin is my main concern and objective. Whether it's goes in as 1 putt or so doesn't really matter.
A good player can only tell you the basic but it really depends on indivdual liking. just saying that it's a very personal feel and free to choose which kind of putting method.( eg. Belly putting, overgrip, etc)
Most of the time I just putt straight unless the line is very obvious left to right or right to left. Actually if u putt straight and firm, it will take the slope out of play.....but if u are a bit off....heh heh u may end outside the green
Winston Super Active Golfer
Posts : 1723 Join date : 2009-08-18 Age : 50 Location : 19th Hole
If you have played the game long enough and has made some steady progress to be able to knock the ball decently in 80+ strokes or less, you would have figured out that the variables in being good in your putting cannot be listed in 1 page or in this case, 1 post. I will try to list 4.
1stly, many people are searching for the magical key to try and reduce their putts per green to start getting decent scores. However, they think that they need to get not more than 2 putts per green to be considered good. To do this they will:
- Get a new putter every now and then - fiddle with their stroke till they confuse themselves.
I am one of those who love(d) fiddling around with new toys before. I still will bring one out for a game or 2 just for fun. However, when I got on the SAM machine and was given a few tips by the PGA-certified club fitter on putting, the biggest takeaway I had from the session was alignment. You can't aim away from the target and expect the ball to go in all the time. It doesn't work that way.
By alignment, I mean that your: - putterface - forearms - hips and thighs - knees - feet
are parallel to your tgt line. That is the most conventional way to putt.
Granted some of those who know more will say that TW aims it 2* right of his intended target line but is (was) the best clutch putter ever. The thing you need to know about him is that he has honed his stroke so well that he knows how the ball will react everytime it comes off the putter face.
The next trick is to minimise non-required movements.
Many many people will tell you to keep the head down when putting. What many fail to continue to realise is that not only the head needs to be steady but also the rest of the body not related to the stroke. This means that keeping the list above (hips, thighs, knees etc) steady till you are finished with the follow-thru.
Here is a golf tip I was taught: lean your bum against a wall and do a couple of practice strokes. If your bum is moving around brushing the wall, you are moving around too much.
Once you have gotten the setup somewhat decent, the next is the rhythm of the stroke. If you watch Golf on TV, you will find that every Pro has a different tempo and rhythm to their putting stroke. Find your own special rhythm and stick with it. Thats to say that if you have a fairly quick golf swing, your putting stroke will somewhat mirror it in a way. If you are too deliberate doing it, you will probably struggle with pace. Work with a training aid like the "Inside-Down-The-Line" or the Zen-i to try and find what rhythm gets the ball rolling the best for you.
Lastly, bringing it to the golf course:
If you watch golf on TV enuff, you will see that even PGA pros do 3-putt, sometimes more often than they wish. Are they bad putters? No. For them, luck and strategy plays more of a role than the way they stroke their putts.
Lets say you are playing a course blind. If you had 18 holes of downhill putts vs 18 holes of uphill putts, which do you think will allow you to have fewer strokes?
The answer is pretty obvious. Then again, hitting the ball or chipping the ball to a position to give you the best opportunity to make less putts requires the other facets of your game like chipping, pitching and approach shots to work so even if you have perfected a decent putting stroke somewhat, having lots of tough putts during a round will definitely knock out your confidence level and let self-doubt creep in. Which, you will find that you will go thru the cycle of doing what I mentioned earlier.
Next time when you record stats on the course, go 1 step further and record your description of your putts, whether it was uphill, sidehill, double break, distance. If you have had 40 putts per round, the thing to work on may not be your putting, it could be the fluffed pitch that led to a couple of 60 footers or the skulled bunker shot that gave you a 30ft downhill putt. You will realise that even when your putting is somewhat working, it probably can't save you on those occasions.
Dun beat yourself up when you cannot get down in 2 for those 30-40 footers. Ask yourself why you have those 40 footers in the 1st place.
ChrisD Incredibly Active Golfer
Posts : 3469 Join date : 2009-11-04 Age : 49 Location : Live beside the King
If you have played the game long enough and has made some steady progress to be able to knock the ball decently in 80+ strokes or less, you would have figured out that the variables in being good in your putting cannot be listed in 1 page or in this case, 1 post. I will try to list 4.
1stly, many people are searching for the magical key to try and reduce their putts per green to start getting decent scores. However, they think that they need to get not more than 2 putts per green to be considered good. To do this they will:
- Get a new putter every now and then - fiddle with their stroke till they confuse themselves.
I am one of those who love(d) fiddling around with new toys before. I still will bring one out for a game or 2 just for fun. However, when I got on the SAM machine and was given a few tips by the PGA-certified club fitter on putting, the biggest takeaway I had from the session was alignment. You can't aim away from the target and expect the ball to go in all the time. It doesn't work that way.
By alignment, I mean that your: - putterface - forearms - hips and thighs - knees - feet
are parallel to your tgt line. That is the most conventional way to putt.
Granted some of those who know more will say that TW aims it 2* right of his intended target line but is (was) the best clutch putter ever. The thing you need to know about him is that he has honed his stroke so well that he knows how the ball will react everytime it comes off the putter face.
The next trick is to minimise non-required movements.
Many many people will tell you to keep the head down when putting. What many fail to continue to realise is that not only the head needs to be steady but also the rest of the body not related to the stroke. This means that keeping the list above (hips, thighs, knees etc) steady till you are finished with the follow-thru.
Here is a golf tip I was taught: lean your bum against a wall and do a couple of practice strokes. If your bum is moving around brushing the wall, you are moving around too much.
Once you have gotten the setup somewhat decent, the next is the rhythm of the stroke. If you watch Golf on TV, you will find that every Pro has a different tempo and rhythm to their putting stroke. Find your own special rhythm and stick with it. Thats to say that if you have a fairly quick golf swing, your putting stroke will somewhat mirror it in a way. If you are too deliberate doing it, you will probably struggle with pace. Work with a training aid like the "Inside-Down-The-Line" or the Zen-i to try and find what rhythm gets the ball rolling the best for you.
Lastly, bringing it to the golf course:
If you watch golf on TV enuff, you will see that even PGA pros do 3-putt, sometimes more often than they wish. Are they bad putters? No. For them, luck and strategy plays more of a role than the way they stroke their putts.
Lets say you are playing a course blind. If you had 18 holes of downhill putts vs 18 holes of uphill putts, which do you think will allow you to have fewer strokes?
The answer is pretty obvious. Then again, hitting the ball or chipping the ball to a position to give you the best opportunity to make less putts requires the other facets of your game like chipping, pitching and approach shots to work so even if you have perfected a decent putting stroke somewhat, having lots of tough putts during a round will definitely knock out your confidence level and let self-doubt creep in. Which, you will find that you will go thru the cycle of doing what I mentioned earlier.
Next time when you record stats on the course, go 1 step further and record your description of your putts, whether it was uphill, sidehill, double break, distance. If you have had 40 putts per round, the thing to work on may not be your putting, it could be the fluffed pitch that led to a couple of 60 footers or the skulled bunker shot that gave you a 30ft downhill putt. You will realise that even when your putting is somewhat working, it probably can't save you on those occasions.
Dun beat yourself up when you cannot get down in 2 for those 30-40 footers. Ask yourself why you have those 40 footers in the 1st place.
Rex...some validate points there but its a lot more simple or complex depending on how we look at it. i will try and present them in a sequential and logical manner for better understanding.
however when golfers start to mess around with their technique, its actually the start of their problem. the reason why we have decided to shelf the idea of bringing in the SAM putt lab is its an accurate enough device to tell us about rotation and timing, but so what? it means nothing unless you can fix it. The advice of the PGA clubfitter is also not the most sound.
WHY???
3 foot Phil has excellent feel and he makes all the long putts easily, but the short putts kills him because he is fighting his natural putt motion to execute something highly manipulative. if you look at his putter training regime, he should be a lot more successful. But all that training is not helping him but instead it is to remind him of his weakness. Remember..never weaken the strong to strengthen the weak.
what is the most natural putting stroke? its NO. 1 gate open gate close.
What is your most natural putting stroke? take your normal putting stance, close your eyes and putt through the ball. you can video this, go on a SAM Putt Lab or just get a friend with a keen sense to have a look.
Rex did your club fitter ask you to do that? He should also have ask you to make putts with different length putters. one fundamental problem that exist is golfers use the wrong length which either blocks their flow motion or vice versa.
Once you establish your natural putting stroke, the next step is not so tough...unless you want to putt like your idol.
oh 2 more interesting facts (this was disclosed to me by Dr. Christian Marquardt - the inventor of SAM Putt Lab and Nick Middleton - the inventor of Break 30 and Zen, during my tele-conversations with them)....Dave Petz could not repeat what he preach when he went onto the SAM Putt Lab. And also Tiger at the high of his prowess was always aiming 2 degrees to the right of the target from over 20 feet. so what does it mean?
it means predictability and confidence is the key to holing the putts. its not wrong to stand open or closed to the target line as long as you know where the ball is going to go. if the text book gurus were right, then there will be no Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus...look at their putting stance.
DGman
golfcoma Junior Golfer
Posts : 190 Join date : 2009-08-13 Location : Shanghai
Anyone find it odd that there lots of questions when it comes to the full swing, but hardly any when the thread is about putting. Even with this thread.
I find it funny, considering that putting is where it really starts to count. Once we're on the green, we're talking about precision already. The pros see it so differently from us amateurs, they know that tournaments are won and lost with the flatstick.
Perhaps it's the oft repeated "there is no right or wrong, it's whatever you are comfortable with" that makes most think their comfortable grip, ball position, hand position, and stroke is working well enough. I'd say that the "comfortable" thing is only conditionally right. The condition being that one is able to park the ball consistently within one putter length of the hole. Otherwise, we should be seeking as much help for our putting as we are for our full swing.
When I start to think about it, there are so many questions when it comes to putting, I don't even know where to start.
Perhaps I can start with one that all of us here can ask ourselves.
so guys...we know what is a natural and what are manipulative putting strokes.
there is nothing wrong with each type of stroke as long as you know how to keep your body still and hands moving to achieve what is a predicable result.
we will also tend to find that golfers who experiment with different strokes without fully training on one particular type will end up getting confused and frustrated.
perhaps you show watch this video and may be amazed at a top golfer who choked and in the process "lost his millions" without a golf course designed by him.
the year was 1970. the lost is only second to Jean Van de Velde embarrassing loss.
35 years later, this is what Doug Sanders have to say.
Still haunted after all these years
This is a case of choking and experts believe that if Doug have just thought about making a stroke instead of thinking he was going to be the Open Champion, his life would have been a lot different.
Golf at the highest level can be very cruel.
DGman
S70B Course Marshal
Posts : 5118 Join date : 2009-06-18 Location : Home sweat home...
Rex...some validate points there but its a lot more simple or complex depending on how we look at it. i will try and present them in a sequential and logical manner for better understanding.
however when golfers start to mess around with their technique, its actually the start of their problem. the reason why we have decided to shelf the idea of bringing in the SAM putt lab is its an accurate enough device to tell us about rotation and timing, but so what? it means nothing unless you can fix it. The advice of the PGA clubfitter is also not the most sound.
WHY???
3 foot Phil has excellent feel and he makes all the long putts easily, but the short putts kills him because he is fighting his natural putt motion to execute something highly manipulative. if you look at his putter training regime, he should be a lot more successful. But all that training is not helping him but instead it is to remind him of his weakness. Remember..never weaken the strong to strengthen the weak.
what is the most natural putting stroke? its NO. 1 gate open gate close.
What is your most natural putting stroke? take your normal putting stance, close your eyes and putt through the ball. you can video this, go on a SAM Putt Lab or just get a friend with a keen sense to have a look.
Rex did your club fitter ask you to do that? He should also have ask you to make putts with different length putters. one fundamental problem that exist is golfers use the wrong length which either blocks their flow motion or vice versa.
Once you establish your natural putting stroke, the next step is not so tough...unless you want to putt like your idol.
oh 2 more interesting facts (this was disclosed to me by Dr. Christian Marquardt - the inventor of SAM Putt Lab and Nick Middleton - the inventor of Break 30 and Zen, during my tele-conversations with them)....Dave Petz could not repeat what he preach when he went onto the SAM Putt Lab. And also Tiger at the high of his prowess was always aiming 2 degrees to the right of the target from over 20 feet. so what does it mean?
it means predictability and confidence is the key to holing the putts. its not wrong to stand open or closed to the target line as long as you know where the ball is going to go. if the text book gurus were right, then there will be no Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus...look at their putting stance.
DGman
I have a copy of 'Phil's Secret Of the Short Game'. In it, his technique from grip to stroke to putter length is already different from Pelz. However, I will always regard Pelz as a scientist, not a golf pro.
I picked up a copy of Stan Utley's 'The Art Of Putting'. In it, the emphasis is all about set-up and grip. Its a very much thinner book than most, much less info than Pelz's book.
During the SAM Putt lab session, I definitely asked what is the right length of putter for me. The fitter instead of trying to get me to go with 1 putting stroke asked me what sort of technique I prescribe to. I told him I definitely want more of Utley and less of Pelz. He did show me that with Pelz's technique using the SAM, its harder to maintain a square face at contact and there is a tendency to slice the ball during the stroke. Its very much easier obtaining a square contact using an arc stroke. This is easier to achieve with a LONGER putter length vs a shorter one where the arms hang down more and the set-up changes. The SAM definitely proves something with results instead of telling me 'no, dun do this, its wrong' but not explain why.
I was also shown that even using Utley's technique (if you have read his book), 71* lie angle and 35" in length (which coincidentally is the stock option for Scotty Cameron Putters), those specs are contrary to what Utley preaches which is to go flatter lie angles. With the stock set-up, it gave me:
- Forearms in line with the putter shaft when gripping the club properly - Correct Lie angle - Correct eye position (left eye inside and to the right of the ball at setup) - Correct hip bend
It is very different from my old stance and set-up where eye-over-ball position and a flatter lie angle is required, making my stroke very inconsistent.
PGA certified means that he is a certified teaching pro on top of being a club fitter sir. I asked him which one is he 1st and he mentioned that he will always want to fit people but correcting technique is 1 of the ways to making the fitting session easier. No point fitting a person when their technique is all out of wack.
Lastly, its true about Palmer, Nicklaus, Trevino and Woods aiming and stance habits. There is no right or wrong but ask these questions: how many of these type of players are there in the world? Are they a majority or a minority? Will it help people's games if we copied their very different technique?
PS: Dave Stockton's technique for the putting stroke is to have a little wrist cock during the takeway and the left hand will lead the putter (for RH golfers) during the forward stroke. Is this natural? It helped win a Masters title this year but will it be a technique that the everyday golfer can emulate and have success with?
I will always regard Pelz as a scientist, not a golf pro.
I picked up a copy of Stan Utley's 'The Art Of Putting'. In it, the emphasis is all about set-up and grip.
He did show me that with Pelz's technique using the SAM, its harder to maintain a square face at contact and there is a tendency to slice the ball during the stroke. Its very much easier obtaining a square contact using an arc stroke. This is easier to achieve with a LONGER putter length vs a shorter one where the arms hang down more and the set-up changes.
what Utley preaches which is to go flatter lie angles. With the stock set-up, it gave me:
- Forearms in line with the putter shaft when gripping the club properly - Correct Lie angle - Correct eye position (left eye inside and to the right of the ball at setup) - Correct hip bend
It is very different from my old stance and set-up where eye-over-ball position and a flatter lie angle is required, making my stroke very inconsistent.
Bravo S70B. Exactly my thoughts on putting. May I highlight that if you want an arc stroke, get a longer length putter, flatten the lie angle and don't have your eyes directly over the ball. Also I dont believe keeping a triangle with your arms will enable you to arc the stroke but I would like to hear other opinions on how this is possible
Subject: Re: Key points for putting 
Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:51 am
