My views on local teaching pros

so your handicap is based on your last game hor..

all along i thought you are handicap 24.....

for two 18 that is.

hahaha my hcp always being misunderstood.....

I find that MOST local coaches are lacking in proper Instructional Techniques. They either explain the swing in a way that the student cannot grasp fully or do it in a very local authoritarian style. That said, I'm sure there are some good ones out there. Vincent Lee @ TPY comes to mind as I have heard good things about him although I have not had lessons from him. He has been at it for more than 10 years now, since I first picked up the game.

Until a local coach has been properly 'schooled' in the art of teaching people, knowing how to do it themselves does not translate to passing down the same info to the students. That is how foreign coaches have an edge over our local crop.

Reading a book and visiting famous coaches or going to neighbouring countries to get a 'teaching cert' only improves your credibility by this much. I'm not dissing them for not understanding the game and swing or knowing how to play it properly but one must know that teaching is a skill that has to be learnt over time, not something a 2 week or a month long course can automatically tell you how to perform the skill.

That said, it is good to support the academy that you are having success with but to say that others don't work is not really accurate. I'm sure the top 30 money-earners on the PGA playing in today's final round of the Tour Championship are doing pretty alright swinging the club the traditional way.

PS: I have been visiting Joey of the Swing Kings (Jsmooth here in this forum) every now and then for the past 7 odd years he has been in Sg. He has been instrumental in my improvement which I give him huge credit for BUT progress will not happen if I don't practice what he taught me at least once or twice a week. The faults he points out and the techniques he introduce to me are actually very simple but to ingrain it into your mind is another matter by itself.

End of the day, how your game progresses are limited by:

1- How serious you are about the game (which will determine how much you practice)
2- How much potential you have.
3- How much you actually understand about the swing yourself.

Do not blame the coach entirely too if your game doesn't improve. Sometimes, its just that you are limited by your own boundaries of learning.

i feel quite strongly about this pro issue too, as i have visited a few pros, as i am quite eager to accelerate my learning process in this game to improve.

to be frank, i think that alot of SG pros are just out there to make $$$ and do not have a vested interest in your game, because frankly, at the end of the day, there is a large group of people who go to pros just to get a PC or handicap, and that's it.

furthermore, there is no regulating authority which regulates the standards of the pro, or how they are teaching. whilst there may be USGTF, SGA, etc., there is no standard accreditation or fixed manner as to what they are teaching, or how they are teaching.

fundamentally looking at the issue, we see that even the top pros can disagree on various types and manners of swinging or hitting the ball, and this creates a huge variance in the manner in which golf pros approach golf instructions as a whole. there is no fixed syllabus as to what he is teaching.
my point is this, at the end of the day, which pro can teach u to hit the ball the most effectively, and to play golf as a game rather than playing golf swing or driving distance? does your pro teach you effective shots to play golf on the course, or does he just teach u how to hit the ball on the range mat?

these are the main questions which anyone should ask.

anyway, i feel that u should not just pigeonhole angmoh vs local pros. there are quite a few lousy angmoh pros also, and there are also a few good local pros. it is only a matter of finding something that suits your requirements as well as your style. if someone wants to get a budget and fast way to be able to learn how to swing or hit the ball properly, they can continue going to whatever mr XXX from whereever.

honestly, S1993, i totally understand where you are coming from and i am for you on this issue. but i am just adding my few cents worth here, as i really feel very disturbed and pertubed by this whole teaching pro issue. yes, i have had a few bad experiences.

smails wrote:

Lamts18 wrote:

Give Tendy Tsai a try ....

Better have deep pockets. Care to tell us all his price? Any kids winning anything, any pros?

he charges $200/hr, but i can challenge anyone to go there and tell me that the money is not well spent.
does it matter whether he has kids or pros winning anything? the main thing is, even if they do win anything, do u think they will attribute it to Tendy's Swing? he doesn't market it that way, because he doesn't change the way u swing.

at the end of the day, pros and kids winning anything, is all about marketing. these guys already have the aptitude and attitude, however they're swinging is only 1 or 2% of the hard work that goes into winning.

mervyntan wrote:

he charges $200/hr, but i can challenge anyone to go there and tell me that the money is not well spent.
does it matter whether he has kids or pros winning anything? the main thing is, even if they do win anything, do u think they will attribute it to Tendy's Swing? he doesn't market it that way, because he doesn't change the way u swing.

So if he doesn't change the way you swing then what is the $200/hr for? My natural swing sucked and I am glad my coach changed it.

smails wrote:

mervyntan wrote:

he charges $200/hr, but i can challenge anyone to go there and tell me that the money is not well spent.
does it matter whether he has kids or pros winning anything? the main thing is, even if they do win anything, do u think they will attribute it to Tendy's Swing? he doesn't market it that way, because he doesn't change the way u swing.

So if he doesn't change the way you swing then what is the $200/hr for? My natural swing sucked and I am glad my coach changed it.

i'm sorry that you misunderstood my meaning. some coaches tend to completely change the way u swing, from swing plane, set up, etc etc.

to me, that is a little extreme, as not everyone is built to swing in a certain manner. for example, there is no way u are going to get maximum shoulder extension with a average 50 year old. how do u teach him to swing then?

what i mean is that, what he does is to look at your physical dynamics, and then gradually correct certain parts of your swing, to give you a proper swing which suits your body, rather than some coaches forcing you to swing a certain fixed way.

i am not implying anything here, but this is what i prefer, as i believe that a golf swing is individual, as is easily seen on the PGA tour, and especially on the LPGA tour.

i tried 4 different pros and none changed my set up and none were able to fix my swing. I reverse pivot necause i starting from wrong set up. I was never forced to swing a certain way, it just make sense when i seen the video proof. So if i want to correct my fault I must change set up. As RSC says to me, i have 2 arms and 2 legs so all can swing this way. I am not athletic type but I can do this swing easy. Anyway the proof to me is in my score and my new found love for the game. My wallet not so light either

My views. Just remembet your schooling days. Some teachers are just gd and some are waiting for pension. Race is not the issue. Those coaches from oz or elsewhere normally are better just like the school teachers: they must be passionate abt golf to uproot and come sg. There would also be sincere and passionate sg coaches. But of cos in sg you will see some waiting for pension type. Just like if you go oz, you probably will encounter many similar pensioner coaches.

Let us not make sweeping statements about them. Good coaches would probably not mind you chatting with them about their teaching philosophy to see if you can click.

We have foreign and local pros helping here. The fact that they take personal time to answer qns shows their openness and passion for golf. Give them a call and arrange to meet up. Like some ppl mention, not all instructors click with you.

That is why they often change a few instructors during pilot training to determine lack of skills or wrong chemistry before chopping pilot trainees.

mmm alright that's great smails.

there's bound to be bad experiences but if you do find a good one, then great! hold onto him and thank the stars your money hasn't all gone to naught. but this isn't by all means like playing 4D or Toto (lost 10 bucks), there are so called 'preventive' measures we can take as mentioned prior. we could meet up with the coaches for an interview, go by recommendations from peers, or even ask them to hit a few balls if we are so bold.

research, ask as many questions as you want, and make the decision to the best of your ability.

Well since someone started this, might as well share with all my bad experience with a particular local pro.

I started golfing again (tried 10 yrs ago with Dad but gave up halfway) when my company sponsor us the basic lessons. After the 6 lessons of basic, I felt hook on this game and therefore wanted to carry on learning. Happens that a few of my buddy was with this pro at Bishan Range so decided to join them. His name Adrain Tan (Tall Skinny & Dark fellow). They got to know him as he always gave free advise on the range. Nice fellow at the beginning.

We paid for 10 lessons and completed 5. Then come the 6th lesson when we sudden could get in touch of him. Even his mobile was cancelled. Then there go our $$$ for the balance 5 lessons. Then we started to recap what have we got from him and realise we didn't get to learn much. Even though we are intemmediate student, we are still doing swing for all 5 lessons. No chipping and dun even know how to tackle a bunker shots.

After weeks of trying to locate him, we gave up and sign a package with Gary Edwin from fresh.

Now, we had just completed our 1st package with Gary Edwin and we see improvement on our golf mechanics. We chip better, know what to do for putting and at least can get our ball out from sand.

So lesson learnt, start off with a pro that teach with a proper school. Give those individual coach a missed if you really hope to get good basic of golf. We wasted $$$ and 2 yrs practising the wrong ways.

By the way, recently heard from frens that this Adrain Tan teach at Turf City Range... If anyone sees him, beware....

I'm not sweeping all local pros just that I hope beginners will get to learn the proper ways for start.

smails wrote:

i tried 4 different pros and none changed my set up and none were able to fix my swing. I reverse pivot necause i starting from wrong set up. I was never forced to swing a certain way, it just make sense when i seen the video proof. So if i want to correct my fault I must change set up. As RSC says to me, i have 2 arms and 2 legs so all can swing this way. I am not athletic type but I can do this swing easy. Anyway the proof to me is in my score and my new found love for the game. My wallet not so light either

Good that you are making progress with your new found swing. Everyone will have a different rate of progress when it comes to this game, just like everything else in life.

I would like to know what is a wrong set-up to you? True there are certain guidelines to how you address for your shot whatever your swing technique is but there are the extreme few like Jim Furyk who stands close to the ball and Zach Johnson with his super low hands (heard his irons are 4* flat due to his setup but thats another post or story altogether).

If you mean things like your hands were too high, back was curved, weight too much on the toes, heels etc, ok these are the general 'rules of thumb' that will determine how successful your ballstriking will be. However, I'm getting the feeling that you seem to be generalising every other way other than the one you are learning is not the right way. Sorry but I don't buy it if its the latter.

smails wrote:

Lamts18 wrote:

Give Tendy Tsai a try ....

Better have deep pockets. Care to tell us all his price? Any kids winning anything, any pros?

Now now, lets not start on the 'Mine's bigger than yours' kinda debate. If you want to talk numbers, why not look into the top 30 playing today at Atlanta? You know what is the obvious answer and outcome right?

Well, the general view here in this thread now is talking swing coach vs swing coach, not about kids or people winning anything cos unless you are one of them, I don't see the need to bring ultra-talented people like them into the picture. Its like having a Victoria Secrets model showing off a maximiser bra and lingerie - she's already got the goods so what she has on is enhancing the look. Nothing miraculous about it.

I reckon learning golf is akin to studying. I can have the same books and same teachers as our friend Mervyn Tan but that doesn't guarantee me a place in LSE will it? Likewise, Joey has helped me bring my hdcp down from 11 to 3 over the years but I do not think he will dare guarantee the same results for every student using me as an example will he?

Agree to disagree on some of your original points dude.

I took a 7hours package when i started last year August. Only learn 1/2 and 3/4 swing. 1hour was spend on Wood and driver. I blame myself for learning slow.
Even since then i never take lesson from pro. Watch many golf video and try to understand the body and hands movement. Join flight to train my mental and get tips from good player.
Now i still doing it...

no pun intended but seriously, it is different strokes for different folks.


some ppl like to be in control and some ppl like to be controlled.

Annika Sorenstem has always advocated a simple, natural swing so that it is easier to fall back on when the going gets tough. just relax and do what is natural and easily. so that one's swing is consistent and able to fly. something like that or words to similar effect.

Look at Jim Furyk. ten thousand planes going up and coming down but the ball is dead straight without a ruler. most of the time. To him, that is a natural swing.


Look at Mr. Eldrick Woods. He keep changing his swing for a 'better' purpose. almost machiam like machine like that. say change, can change.


but all is already champion by their own rights. or maybe just Mr. Woods earning so much moolah already and have hot swedish wife....

its good to notice that those who have a positive experience with their teaching pro speak highly of them. its testimony that if you do your job with conviction, you will be rewarded.

customer testimony is the best form of advertising.

DGman

PS....i recently went to a pro mentioned in this thread and after 30 minutes (and about 30 balls later) found my extension on upswing and impact more positive. this was captured on video for comparison. translated to actual game, half club difference (longer) for irons and at least 10 more metres on driver, but more importantly accuracy has improved tremendously.

Well said. Good testimonials of what you experienced doesn't have to equate to bad testimonials of the rest.

I saw the video. Are you sure you still need those strokes from me after your increase in dist n accuracy?

For people like me with shallow pockets, i get people who go to lessons to correct my swing. And the shocking thing is that it make wonders.....

How can your pockets be shallow when you have been winning $$$ from Bryan n the rest?

I think that the concern here is more of a perception than anything else. My first coach was a malay chap in Malaysia. He was really good and supportive. Rather than teach me his style of play, he tried to work out my swing and help me develop my own style of play (which has since gone from bad to worse over the many many many years).

He taught me a lot of the basics to ensure that I got a good foundation and then helped me to improve steadily in the game. I credit a lot of my game then (some 15 years ago) to him and was even able to play in the mid 80s. Of course, those who play with me now know that my efforts to achieve that score these days are a lost cause.

Regardless, all I'm saying is that don't pass judgment due to one bad experience. I've heard of people getting really upset with foreign coaches too. A lot depends on the coach (admittedly) and all of them have some flaws or other. A lot also depends on the student. Some take well to a particular style of coaching, others don't.

In the end, I feel your frustration Start1993 (which, I guess is when you started playing golf) but I believe that there are many ethical local coaches who are working hard at trying to impart proper coaching to students. Perhaps they aren't as popular as non-"local" coaches and probably don't receive the same amount of credit. Regardless, we shouldn't write them off just yet.

S70B wrote:

Well said. Good testimonials of what you experienced doesn't have to equate to bad testimonials of the rest.

I saw the video. Are you sure you still need those strokes from me after your increase in dist n accuracy?

if no strokes for our difference in handicap then strokes for difference in age lor...

DGman wrote:

S70B wrote:

Well said. Good testimonials of what you experienced doesn't have to equate to bad testimonials of the rest.

I saw the video. Are you sure you still need those strokes from me after your increase in dist n accuracy?

if no strokes for our difference in handicap then strokes for difference in age lor...

we'll talk when I get back.

DGman wrote:

PS....i recently went to a pro mentioned in this thread and after 30 minutes (and about 30 balls later) found my extension on upswing and impact more positive. this was captured on video for comparison. translated to actual game, half club difference (longer) for irons and at least 10 more metres on driver, but more importantly accuracy has improved tremendously.

Where and who is this coach? I also need a coach.. always swing well at range.. but on course play like shit.. recently always play high 90+.. dunno when then can go back to consistent 80+

mengteck 71...pm you liao...

to reiterate what my idol has said, i totally agree that u can have the best teaching pro in the world guiding u, but if u do without practice and constant going at it, it is still a lost cause.


I have been wasting alot of money actually, going to my pro, work out a problem, then i go without range and practice, then i go to my next game and again doing all the same mistakes... now i just got to go back to my pro again and have him teach me again what he already taught me.

Interesting reading this thread. I think it is irrelevant if foreign or local pro. There are good and bad on both sides of the fence. As a coach I hear good and bad reviews of the same coach from different people so I believe that as a coach you can not fix every golfer. Some will like your style and personality and some will not. I am sure there are those that have good and bad results with my coaching.
I do however believe a coach should give 100% to every student and listen to their feedback and be passionate about what they do. I think a coach will know if they are helping golfers to improve or just taking there money. I personally felt the later about 6 years ago and decided to do something about it. I met Gary Edwin and studied and observed and I now feel I am a much better coach and get much more satisfaction and results.
All coaches should be willing to continue to improve their coaching and study their craft. The student also needs to take some responsibility for their progress as well and put in the practice and effort to achieve their goals.
From my experience, I had a coach as an amateur that was totally wrong in his teaching and I practiced and practiced what he told me and spent alot of $$$$ only to not improve. I blame him for this, not the lack of effort I put in to practice. I was doing what he wanted but it wasnt working. Gary fixed the problem this other coach had been trying to fix for 3 years in about 10 minutes.

And for all that think I teach a "must do" swing, it is not the case. The only thing I insist on is the set up I use. All the RSS players have completely different body types and swing differently. They do look the same to most as they set up the same but that is about it.

If you are happy with your pro, local or foreign, stick with him/her. If you are not do some research. Ask around, make an appointment with them and go from there. This is purely the reason I offer a free swing analysis. I do not want to just take your hard earned. I just wanna fix your game at a fair and reasonable price