Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion

Good day all.

The new ball flight laws using D plane is a dry subject which only comes to life when we try to implement it on a course. In a discussion w bro ljlow, I realised from the questions asked, it might be quite a complex idea to grasp for the first time.

So, I thought the Q&A that ensued might also be useful for others as well, so am sharing it here with ljlow's permission. My comments in violet.

ljlow wrote:
Thanks bro! On D Plane, i'm assuming the swing is smooth, repeatable and the body is working fine.

The swing path is actually how we align the feet and shoulder.

Close but not exactly. The alignment of the feet and shoulder determines the swing direction. Which points our swing arc at a certain target. Now, where we make contact with the ball will determine the swing path at contact.

Imagine hitting down on the ball with an iron. The club is still going down at impact. Which can only mean it is before the low point of the arc. The club is going down, right (of target), and out.

Imagine hitting up on the ball with a driver. The club has passed the lowest point of the arc and is now going up, left and in.

So when hitting down, the swing path at impact is naturally inside out.

When hitting up, the swing path at impact is naturally outside in.

The ball will start towards the direction clubface is pointing while the landing point would be where the shoulder and feet aligned to. Is this understanding correct?

The ball will start approx 85% where the clubface is point, and approx 15% where the swing path is pointing, determined by loft. The lower the loft, the stronger the % of effect of the club face. The higher the loft, the stronger the % effect of swing path.

Now, where the ball will bend to, how much it will bend, is determined by how much the club face direction and swing path direction differs. If the difference is great, the ball will bend more. If the difference is slight, the ball will bend less. So we can say whether the shot will fade or draw but we can't really say where the ball will land. Loft and spin come into play. With a high lofted club, it will bend less. With a low lofted club, it will bend more. That's why it's easier to shape the shot with driver, 3 wood and mid to long irons. Not so easy to shape the shot with wedges, PW and short irons.

my clubface is closed at setup and body aligned to target, that explains my fade shot shape?

Be careful, the club face angle at set up is usually not the same as the club face angle at impact. So, do an impact fix to find out the club face angle at impact, and adjust set up accordingly.

But you're right, body aligned to target, and hitting up on driver, usually causes a fade or slice. For irons, usually causes hooks.

I have been using the old ball flight, now i know why my 3w slice to another fairway when i setup to hit a so-called 'draw' and i've been telling myself G15 cant work the ball... !!
Ha ha. Now you know how confusing incorrect information like old ball flight laws can be.

Lee36328 wrote:
Remember, with the driver, you are hitting up. Which means, because the swing is an arc, you are hitting slightly outside in if you set up square. To correct this, set up with your shoulders and feet pointing slightly right of the target, X amount, while the club face points at the target, or just a bit right of target, say 0.5 X amount. This way, when you contact the ball in the way up the arc, you are hitting with a straight path, or slightly inside out, and you will either get a straight shot or even a slight draw.

i might need more time to digest the driver swing. please correct me at any point below...

for iron, the club face is square at low-point and at impact the swing path is neutral.
First, it depends on where in the arc you make impact, ie. are you hitting down on the iron, or hitting it level, just at the bottom of the arc. The ideal point is of course hitting down. That way, you get ball first contact instead of ground first contact.

Next it depends on the length of the iron. The shorter the iron, the more you are hitting down on it because the arc is very small. The longer the iron, the more you are sweeping it off the turf because the arc is very wide. So, for shorter irons, assuming you are hitting down, the inside out path is more pronounced than for longer irons. Which is why we tend to hook short irons more easily. Conversely, it's quite hard to hit a fade with short irons.

but for driver, as you mention, if setup square, at impact the path is always out-to-in and face closed/square, therefore to compensate for a straight shot, the clubface shd b open and stance point right of target at address;
Again, depends on where contact is made, Some people actually hit down on the ball with drivers too. But in your case, you are hitting up so path is outside in. I can't comment on club face, because it is independent on of the arc. By altering grip and/or release action, the club face can be pointing anywhere on any point in the arc, whether before, during or after low point, for any club. If hitting up and club face is square to the swing path, ball will pull. If club face is slightly open to the path, ball will fade. If club face is very open, ball will slice.

for draw, same stance pointing right of target, face open more;
Point right of target, say X amount, but club face point only part of that, say 0.5 X. Club face would be slightly closed relative to swing path at impact, but still pointing right of target. Remember, we're talking club face at impact, which may be different to club face at address. So do an impact fix to get the face correct.

In other words, stance point right of target, face point in between that and target (with impact fix.)

for fade, same stance pointing right of target with closed face...??
For fade, stance point left of target, face point in between that and target (via impact fix).

Note that because the path is already outside in for driver, you need to adjust your stance very little for fade, but need to adjust the stance much more for draw. Else the ball will just go straight when you try to draw. The stance will need to feel very exaggerated, pointing right of target a lot. So you'll really need to close the club face as a result. Try it at the range and you'll see what I mean.

To further clarify, here's a picture of Ben Hogan set up his feet for different clubs below.



You will see that Ben Hogan's feet are open to target from wedge all the way to almost medium irons before the feet are finally square to target. Then from there, the feet are closed to target, for long iron and driver. This is a very clearly result of D plane, although Hogan did not know it at the time because it had not been discovered yet. With a clear understanding of D plane, Hogan's set up makes perfect sense.

It is often written that Ben Hogan was fighting a persistent hook early in his career. The hook was likely caused by hitting down on the ball, therefore the swing path at impact was naturally inside out. If the clubface was square, the ball hooks.

If you set up like this, and achieve a square club face at impact with a straight swing path, then it pretty much ensures your shots will go straight regardless of club length.

Peace.

It starts making sense to me after the para starts with "for draw, ..." before that i was lost

Lazy brain only likes to see quick tips

Me too

Quote :

pushslice wrote:

It starts making sense to me after the para starts with "for draw, ..." before that i was lost

Lazy brain only likes to see quick tips

can you quickly digest and show me next week during SSN ... I learnt better with on the job training

Duval. I think it make sense easily.

High lofted club (say sand wedge 56) open club face the ball will fly pretty much to where you aim and going high. since the more lofted club impact is more towards the bottom of the ball hence influencing vertical up/down (Y Axis) trajectory rather than for horizontal left/right trajectory (X axis).

Now if you do the same with longer Iron, since it's less loft compared to wedge, at impact, the effect is more felt on the X axis (horizontal left /right) rather than the Y axis. Now take this to 3 iron / driver you get the effect double / trippled since they are on the 20-17-15-10.5/9.5 degree.

That also explains why the slightest miss alignment on driver/wood/long iron cause the ballt o slice /hook terribly. but the same swing will not be so evident when hitting short iron to medium iron. This then resulted in the notion where long iron/driver/fwd are difficult club

Cheers,

Lee36328 wrote:

my clubface is closed at setup and body aligned to target, that explains my fade shot shape?

[color=violet]Be careful, the club face angle at set up is usually not the same as the club face angle at impact. So, do an impact fix to find out the club face angle at impact, and adjust set up accordingly.

But you're right, body aligned to target, and hitting up on driver, usually causes a fade or slice. For irons, usually causes hooks.

Lee,

Let me start this discussion too. Base on your explanation above. If I set up body aligned to target with a my driver clubface address slightly closed (presume impact club face is the same as address). It will usually cause a fade or slice.

Is it because of my swing path angle ? As you mention driver hitting up tend to be a out to in swing path.

In other words .. slightly out to in swing path angle usually produce a fade. If more out to in swing path angle usually produce a slice ? Do I understand correctly ?

Lee,

Also, if long irons, wood to driver tend to produce an out to in swing path due to it arc is width.

By stand with your shoulder and stand slight pointing to the right of target. With long irons, wood and driver, does it give a better chance to get any in to out swing path ?

However, even with a in to out swing path IF

- the club face is open in impact, it will produce a draw
- the club face is square in impact, it will produce a straight draw or hook
- What if the club face is close ? what will be the ball flight be ?

Do I made any sense here ?

Lee36328 wrote:

To further clarify, here's a picture of Ben Hogan set up his feet for different clubs below.



You will see that Ben Hogan's feet are open to target from wedge all the way to almost medium irons before the feet are finally square to target. Then from there, the feet are closed to target, for long iron and driver. This is a very clearly result of D plane, although Hogan did not know it at the time because it had not been discovered yet. With a clear understanding of D plane, Hogan's set up makes perfect sense.

It is often written that Ben Hogan was fighting a persistent hook early in his career. The hook was likely caused by hitting down on the ball, therefore the swing path at impact was naturally inside out. If the clubface was square, the ball hooks.

If you set up like this, and achieve a square club face at impact with a straight swing path, then it pretty much ensures your shots will go straight regardless of club length.

Peace.

Lee,

Last question. By using the example of Ben Hogan above. The ball position were all the same (slight left heel of the left foot). By opening and closing the feet and shoulder. It will compensate the arc of impact for wedges, short and mid irons ?

For heaven sake

Just hit the darn ball....

andrew-golf wrote:

For heaven sake

Just hit the darn ball....

hitting now ..

I have played a total of 3 games after applying the approach on the D-plane for my drives.

Game 1 (Sunday, 4th Dec, Marina Bay) with BabyCroc - Had one of my longest drives that day and averaging 225-235m with the longest assisted by wind at 256m. Unimaginable.

Game 2 (Tuesday, 06 Dec, Marina Bay) - Made best score of 93 I had from blue tee as I was hitting more fairways.

Game 3 (Wednesday, 07 Dec, Poresia)- After trying out two forgiving fairways with the set up, I decided to go to Poresia earlier, where I have played one bad game after another with best score at 111 in that damn course. Today I played 98 all thanks to my set up as all the loss ball , hazard penalties from the tee is almost non-existent.

In addition to all that, I had my driver shaft shortened to 44.5inch, spined and stiffened (added 7 CPM) by my clubfitter to suit my swing speed.

It may sound to good to be true, but the set-up works for me on my driver.

For those folks who's been struggling with ur drives, take your time to read it, understand it and try to apply it. Just take a few hours of your time applying it at the range... if it works for u, go for it, there is no harm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sIQ-7DJJbU Explanation on the D Plane. It's the most informative video out there.

In a nutshell, the D plane tells us that we have to match angle of attack, swing path and face (depending on the golf club) to hit the golf ball straight. Video doesn't show angle of attack and swing path but it shows swing plane.

That is why the Flight Scope has become an essential tool for our students to help them understand angle of attack, swing path and club face. In fact, the Flight Scope has a 3D downswing to impact to post impact video on the club's path. If you think about it, it gives an awesome visual on what is happening as the club is arriving into the hitting area.

Wow, great responses and questions guys. Get me some time, I will get to the questions and reply in detail. Even responses for Andrew-golf and Botak are also useful to note, because it shows the full spectrum of how golfers think.

Excellent video from Jhan which shows how visually the guy looks like he's over the top hitting outside in, but actually, with Trackman, it shows he is slightly inside out at impact. BECAUSE HE IS HITTING DOWN. Ball went straight.

Here is Tiger talking about how he is using Trackman and understanding of D plane in his training under Foley.

"Talking about Trackman stuff, yeah. It's a lot of different numbers, a lot of different planes and attacks angles and D plane and all that stuff."

"Understanding those numbers, yeah, it is relevant, because it's just pure numbers. There's no getting around it, they're universal. They're law. So, understanding those numbers and what they relate to, ball flight, and what it can do and what it doesn't do, that's just fun to do."

"...it's kind of neat to talk numbers like that because most people probably don't get it."

http://trackman.dk/Media/Videos/Tiger-Interview.aspx

Here's Sean Foley talking about the changes Tiger had to make to hit the stinger again.

“Basically you have to be able to steepen the attack angle and when you do that the sweet spot, the path of the golf club is moving out to the right so typically when guys get steep they hook it,” said Foley as he walked with Woods during Wednesday’s pro-am at Sherwood Country Club.

“So if you noticed his practice swing there was a lot of swing and shift to the left. The more I’m hitting down the more I have to swing to the left.”

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/return-of-tigers-stinger/

Lee, thanks for sharing. As usual your posts are always very informative and will serve to raise the level of awareness in general on the forum in the long run.

All this theory is very good, but totally useless if you don't have a sound, repeatable swing with strong fundamentals in the first place. Among all my regular kakis (most of them shoot in the low 90s), i think only 2 of them will get ball-first contact. For the rest of them, understanding the D-plane and ball flight laws would not help at all. In fact, the only thing it will achieve is to screw up their alignment.

Before you apply any of this theory to your game, look at your current state and honestly decide where you are. If you have never ever seen a divot in front of where your ball was after a shot, don't bother with this just yet...

Begbie wrote:

Made best score of 93 I had from blue tee as I was hitting more fairways.

Don't mean to be an ass, but why are you playing from the blue tees if you're shooting in the 90s?

errrrr.....abit shocking....I think I mite have unknowingly be doing this (setup as Ben) ..though I don have the expected results....yet

solarpop wrote:

Begbie wrote:

Made best score of 93 I had from blue tee as I was hitting more fairways.

Don't mean to be an ass, but why are you playing from the blue tees if you're shooting in the 90s?

u meant not to be one but u sure sound like one.....

I am easy going and normally we just go along with the folks we share flight in marina or my flightmates.. if play blue, i play blue if they play white, I play white.

Friends who knows me, know I prefer to play white, but for some reasons.... they like to make their money's worth and go blue.

Haven't u been in that situation before when u were a beginner? Or is it just me?

solarpop wrote:

Begbie wrote:

Made best score of 93 I had from blue tee as I was hitting more fairways.

Don't mean to be an ass, but why are you playing from the blue tees if you're shooting in the 90s?

As long as he keep his game on speed, I don't think why not. Maybe putting no good or tough course. Ur comment is a lil harsh in my opinion.

When you played white your score normally better compared to when you played Blue, which is inline with the expectation since blue tee is harder compared to white tee in general.

So say you played in low 80's for white, once you move to blue, you might shoot low 90's. nothings wrong with you, but the course has just became longer and harder, that's all and you are now required to hit those long irons, utility/hybrid and fairwood more accurately.

Take example a par 3 on white is generally not more than 150m. Take that to blue tee, you have anything up to 180-190m. Black maybe 200-220m. The other thing is tee placement for blue is normally requiring you to do some sort of shaping. They are normally not straight behind the white tee, but could be slightly left or right with something potruding to your attack angle. Give those increase in distance and difficulty, do you expect the same result on your score playing white and Blue ? The obvious answer will be no. and the effect is higher score then what you normally do when playing off white.

The point is, if Begbie played 90's on blue, I think he is capable to play at least mid-high 80's on white. So the score it self is not a measure of what one is capable of playing and shouldn't be used as such IMHO.

Cheers,

solarpop wrote:

Lee, thanks for sharing. As usual your posts are always very informative and will serve to raise the level of awareness in general on the forum in the long run.

All this theory is very good, but totally useless if you don't have a sound, repeatable swing with strong fundamentals in the first place. Among all my regular kakis (most of them shoot in the low 90s), i think only 2 of them will get ball-first contact. For the rest of them, understanding the D-plane and ball flight laws would not help at all. In fact, the only thing it will achieve is to screw up their alignment.

Before you apply any of this theory to your game, look at your current state and honestly decide where you are. If you have never ever seen a divot in front of where your ball was after a shot, don't bother with this just yet...

A repeatable sound swing is only possible with good basic, set up and coaching.... Thats what my lessons are for.

From what I understood about Lee's post is purely ball flight for various clubs, ball location etc. As usual with any theory, some will falter while some filters thru... thats why there are many subjects offered in uni coz not everyone will excel in one...

FYI, there are more ppl playing golf other than just ur friends.

Hi bro.

Thanks for your comments, which are useful as usual.

To make things interesting, I inserted my comments/questions in violet.

dmateo wrote:

Duval. I think it make sense easily.

High lofted club (say sand wedge 56) open club face the ball will fly pretty much to where you aim and going high. Ah, question is, what is being aimed, the swing or the club face at impact? since the more lofted club impact is more towards the bottom of the ball hence influencing vertical up/down (Y Axis) trajectory rather than for horizontal left/right trajectory (X axis).

Now if you do the same with longer Iron, since it's less loft compared to wedge, at impact, the effect is more felt on the X axis (horizontal left /right) rather than the Y axis. Now take this to 3 iron / driver you get the effect double / trippled since they are on the 20-17-15-10.5/9.5 degree.

Yes. You explain it well.

That also explains why the slightest miss alignment on driver/wood/long iron cause the ballt o slice /hook terribly. but the same swing will not be so evident when hitting short iron to medium iron. This then resulted in the notion where long iron/driver/fwd are difficult club

Yes again. For two reasons. Shorter irons w more loft generate more spin, which helps to stabilise the flight of the ball. And shorter carry limits the damage of misalignment.

But one might also find, it is harder to fade a shorter iron, easier to fade a long one.

Cheers,

Wow, this thread is moving so fast, I can hardly keep up.

Great participation, which is good to see. Keeping things quite civil without getting too personal would be nice too gentlemen. I seek everyone's cooperation, with my thanks.