Waited 15 years to be tickled by the devil's balls (attempt to drive past 200m)

golfool2009 wrote:

TourSwing wrote:

So whats holding you back? On a scale of 0-100% how much effort are you putting in (with 100 being giving it everything you have)? Do you have any injuries or flexibility limitations? Would be great to see a video of your swing ...

This is my short list of limitations:
1. Chicken legs
2. No muscle, 100% flab
3. Half swing
4. No flexibility
5. No athletic ability

My first order of business over the weekend will be to try a wider shoulder turn...i shall video tape (for the first time), my swing and post it here....

Its refreshing to see an already good player want to take his game to the next level!!! More than lifting weights and building muscle, flexibility is the key! Look at Jimenez ... Hardly looks the athletic sort until he breaks into his warmup routine

Having a stable base to hit off is important as well .. Hows your balance? On video do u notice if you squat a bit at the start of the downswing? Gripping the ground with your feet, gives you access to an immense amount of power!

GF, how bout a tour de Vietnam with yrs truly?
Inclusive of mountain climbing, weight lifting, core strengthenng etc
Fantastic activities designed to improve strength and stamina.

TourSwing wrote:

golfool2009 wrote:

TourSwing wrote:

So whats holding you back? On a scale of 0-100% how much effort are you putting in (with 100 being giving it everything you have)? Do you have any injuries or flexibility limitations? Would be great to see a video of your swing ...

This is my short list of limitations:
1. Chicken legs
2. No muscle, 100% flab
3. Half swing
4. No flexibility
5. No athletic ability

My first order of business over the weekend will be to try a wider shoulder turn...i shall video tape (for the first time), my swing and post it here....

Its refreshing to see an already good player want to take his game to the next level!!! More than lifting weights and building muscle, flexibility is the key! Look at Jimenez ... Hardly looks the athletic sort until he breaks into his warmup routine

Having a stable base to hit off is important as well .. Hows your balance? On video do u notice if you squat a bit at the start of the downswing? Gripping the ground with your feet, gives you access to an immense amount of power!

Yes, interesting to note that long hitters were big muscular tall guys, until Jamie Sadlowski came along, all 5'11" and 165 lbs of him. That's 1.8m and 75 kg. He is taller by 1 inch, while I outweigh JS by 8 kg. He outdrives me by 45 mph. Lots of room for improvement within my current weight class, I'd say.

Lee,

its not just like for like weight category.
You have to know that we have fast twitch and slow twitch muscles. and each individual has a certain ratio of each.

its like why some can run long distance and others can only sprint.
training helps change that ratio but reserach has no specific data on that.

mizzy wrote:

Lee,

its not just like for like weight category.
You have to know that we have fast twitch and slow twitch muscles. and each individual has a certain ratio of each.

its like why some can run long distance and others can only sprint.
training helps change that ratio but reserach has no specific data on that.

"I can't do it" is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a deadly crippling one at that.

So, if you say so, you must be right.

By definition, most of us will be statistically 'average.' That's why there is a bell curve. But we are not doomed to stay there other than by our own mindset.

Rather than wait for mainstream research to have 'specific data', we can seek outliers who have achieved extraordinary goals and learn from them.

JS is a perfect example of an outlier.

Growing up as a chubby bookworm, excelling in academics but never in sports, I spent a lifetime growing up thinking "I'm just not athletically gifted like them." That thinking set me back for decades and hampered my growth beyond calculation.

When I started golf, driver was around 90mph and swing speed of 100mph seemed like an impossible goal. Yesterday, I went to the fitting shop to try and duplicate GF's swing speed of 91 mph under Trackman, I started swinging easy around 94 mph. By the time I warmed up, I thought I was still swinging easy but the speed had climbed to 98 mph.

Took me about 1 year to get past 100 mph. And that's without going to the gym to alter the fast/slow twitch muscle ratio by specific training. I have simply become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club.

There is a guy at my range, who comes up to my nose, if he gets up on tiptoe. But he plays from black tee, and still outdrives me from blue tee by 10-15m. He wins practically every top amateur tournament. And no, he does not look particularly strong or beefy. Just technique. Another outlier.

Going to the gym to do golf-specific exercise is next on my agenda. I can't wait to see where that will lead to.

well done lee.....

do share yr gym routine on the specific exercise if u figure it out...

good luck!!!

Eh GF

Dun need essay la.



We play again and I bring my video cam the next time.

50-50-100.

Lee, when you started golf, you are swinging 90mph already. I was not even doing 70mph.
I hit it out there to 200 and i'm bearly hitting 90mph. Can you tell the difference?

Please forgive me if I misread, but I think you are being snide and disingenious in your remarks. I have never limited myself by thinking I can't do well in sports.

I don't buy it that you are not physically talented in golf. you already showed that you are doing very well. I have been playing for many years on and off and I'm happy to get the results I have so far.

You talk about outliers, true, but so what if you can swing really fast? can you hit the ball??

Come on. At first when I read your posts, you talk about your expereince and stuff and it makes lots of sense. But this

"Took me about 1 year to get past 100 mph. And that's without going to the gym to alter the fast/slow twitch muscle ratio by specific training. I have simply become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club."

really bugs me. Let me tell you as a fact, that you only have to keep swinging the club without going to the gym to convert your core muscles to respond to fast twitch.
In fact, loading weights to build muscles will hamper your fast twitch muscles.

You have become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club "FASTER" because your body has responded by changing your muscles, through normal activity of swinging that club!

I hope you have done some reading up outside on sports physiology and not just respond based on your take on my comment about fast twitch and slow twitch muscles.

Peace.

so does that means weight lifting is counter productive in golf? or is that depends on which muscle being trained ?

not many people have seen the current world LD champion hit 50 to100 yards iron shots. i have and it is not pretty.

if you need to go to the gym to work out, make sure the trainer knows who he is doing. other wise we will get another rage who can hit his driver very long but his 7 iron is my 9 iron distance.

has anyone heard of red cord???

DGman

dmateo,

I have read some interview about Tiger's training and in gist I think he makes the following points.

Building muscles for strength is good. but you lose the feel and touch.
He says he needs to come into a new balance after building muscles. Say with a stronger core for example he will need to work his arms or legs to balance his core. everything is in tune or else one area will over power the other. I've not read anything on how he generates speed.

From my training, stimulating muscles to perform at speed is something else altogether. for golf maybe the pros can talk about the right exercises.
But for sprinting, it involves training under load, maybe 50%-70% of your weight continuosly in bursts. there is the muscle building routine but that's another thing.
you need to know which muscles you are training and isolate them with the right exercise.
or you can do a composite or group of muscles.

I don't advocate going to the gym to build muscles for golf. I've tried that and I believe what Tiger says is true, that you need to find a new balance after you build up 1 area of muscles, or it will over power the rest of your swing.

mizzy wrote:

Lee, when you started golf, you are swinging 90mph already. I was not even doing 70mph.
I hit it out there to 200 and i'm bearly hitting 90mph. Can you tell the difference?

Please forgive me if I misread, but I think you are being snide and disingenious in your remarks. I have never limited myself by thinking I can't do well in sports.

I don't buy it that you are not physically talented in golf. you already showed that you are doing very well. I have been playing for many years on and off and I'm happy to get the results I have so far.

You talk about outliers, true, but so what if you can swing really fast? can you hit the ball??

Come on. At first when I read your posts, you talk about your expereince and stuff and it makes lots of sense. But this

"Took me about 1 year to get past 100 mph. And that's without going to the gym to alter the fast/slow twitch muscle ratio by specific training. I have simply become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club."

really bugs me. Let me tell you as a fact, that you only have to keep swinging the club without going to the gym to convert your core muscles to respond to fast twitch.
In fact, loading weights to build muscles will hamper your fast twitch muscles.

You have become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club "FASTER" because your body has responded by changing your muscles, through normal activity of swinging that club!

I hope you have done some reading up outside on sports physiology and not just respond based on your take on my comment about fast twitch and slow twitch muscles.

Peace.

Mizzy,

So, you actually DO think it is possible to convert slow twitch muscles to fast twitch muscles. I think we are in agreement here. Your original post seemed to imply it was not possible; looks like I misunderstood.

I am emphasizing that a large part of what is possible or not possible is determined by our mindset. If "it can't be done" is not your message, then it was a misunderstanding; my bad.

I am a bit puzzled and would like to ask if I may, with your knowledge of specific sports training, what has prevented you from developing your driver swing speed to a usable 100mph or more? Is it because you think gym work detracts from the golf swing? A sincere question, nothing snide implied.

dmateo wrote:

so does that means weight lifting is counter productive in golf? or is that depends on which muscle being trained ?

Getting stronger overall certainly helps.

Biomechanics plays a big part too.

Swinging efficiently vs inefficiently makes a huge difference to the output generated at impact.

Then there's ball flight dynamics.

It's a complex and FUN puzzle to tackle.

mizzy wrote:

Come on. At first when I read your posts, you talk about your expereince and stuff and it makes lots of sense. But this

"Took me about 1 year to get past 100 mph. And that's without going to the gym to alter the fast/slow twitch muscle ratio by specific training. I have simply become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club."

really bugs me. Let me tell you as a fact, that you only have to keep swinging the club without going to the gym to convert your core muscles to respond to fast twitch.
In fact, loading weights to build muscles will hamper your fast twitch muscles.

You have become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club "FASTER" because your body has responded by changing your muscles, through normal activity of swinging that club!

I was making a point about bio-mechanics, swinging more efficiently, not sure why it bugged you.

There are different swing styles in vogue in the teaching scene. I am familiar with some of them and they give me different results. Some sacrifice distance for accuracy, requires more muscular effort, good for mesomorphs. Another maximizes distance but pays the price in control, while ironically requires less muscular effort, a good fit for ectomorphs.

Lee,

I think getting to 100mph swing speed should be answered by those who have achieved it while hitting the ball sweet.
not to take away the honor from them, but I can swing really relaxed and get that 100mph, but still cannot hit the ball sweet.

Let me rephrase your question as it is a very leading question.
Is gym work necessary to get to 100mph driver swing speed that you can use?
Speed is about relaxed muscles, a tensed muscle destroys that. everyone has heard that.
gym work can over build some muscles and instead of rotating your core, you end up crunching your stomach muscles and bobbing your head for example. or if you have not recovered from gym, you will compensate for a sore muscle with a bad swing.

Go search for some core exercises, you'll find very few. and those there are usually not about weights. maybe some resistive bands. My point is its hard to isolate core muscles of a golf swing other than a golf swing.

Lee36328 wrote:

mizzy wrote:

Come on. At first when I read your posts, you talk about your expereince and stuff and it makes lots of sense. But this

"Took me about 1 year to get past 100 mph. And that's without going to the gym to alter the fast/slow twitch muscle ratio by specific training. I have simply become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club."

really bugs me. Let me tell you as a fact, that you only have to keep swinging the club without going to the gym to convert your core muscles to respond to fast twitch.
In fact, loading weights to build muscles will hamper your fast twitch muscles.

You have become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club "FASTER" because your body has responded by changing your muscles, through normal activity of swinging that club!

I was making a point about bio-mechanics, swinging more efficiently, not sure why it bugged you.

There are different swing styles in vogue in the teaching scene. I am familiar with some of them and they give me different results. Some sacrifice distance for accuracy, requires more muscular effort, good for mesomorphs. Another maximizes distance but pays the price in control, while ironically requires less muscular effort, a good fit for ectomorphs.

As I mentioned, 1 year of swinging the club is going to change your muscles. Not just technique alone. technique is about the release and tempo and so forth.

Let me ask you, after your range for the first time, do your muscles ache?
Does it ache as bad now after 1 year after a range?

you need to understand that the body will adapt to changes right away from the first range.

bio-mechanics is the second stage where you work on the technique. I believe I did not touch on that topic.

mizzy wrote:

Lee,

I think getting to 100mph swing speed should be answered by those who have achieved it while hitting the ball sweet.
not to take away the honor from them, but I can swing really relaxed and get that 100mph, but still cannot hit the ball sweet.

Technique. That's the difference. Fast twitch/slow twitch notwithstanding, it's technique.

mizzy wrote:

Let me rephrase your question as it is a very leading question.
Is gym work necessary to get to 100mph driver swing speed that you can use?

Nope. But at whatever speed, gym work, correctly done, with specific sets of muscles, will help certainly help.

mizzy wrote:

Speed is about relaxed muscles, a tensed muscle destroys that. everyone has heard that.
gym work can over build some muscles and instead of rotating your core, you end up crunching your stomach muscles and bobbing your head for example. or if you have not recovered from gym, you will compensate for a sore muscle with a bad swing.

Go search for some core exercises, you'll find very few. and those there are usually not about weights. maybe some resistive bands. My point is its hard to isolate core muscles of a golf swing other than a golf swing.

Core muscles are important. Core muscles can also be worked in the gym by the way. Note that the golf swing uses more than just core muscles.

mizzy wrote:

Lee36328 wrote:

mizzy wrote:

Come on. At first when I read your posts, you talk about your expereince and stuff and it makes lots of sense. But this

"Took me about 1 year to get past 100 mph. And that's without going to the gym to alter the fast/slow twitch muscle ratio by specific training. I have simply become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club."

really bugs me. Let me tell you as a fact, that you only have to keep swinging the club without going to the gym to convert your core muscles to respond to fast twitch.
In fact, loading weights to build muscles will hamper your fast twitch muscles.

You have become more efficient at the technique of swinging the club "FASTER" because your body has responded by changing your muscles, through normal activity of swinging that club!

I was making a point about bio-mechanics, swinging more efficiently, not sure why it bugged you.

There are different swing styles in vogue in the teaching scene. I am familiar with some of them and they give me different results. Some sacrifice distance for accuracy, requires more muscular effort, good for mesomorphs. Another maximizes distance but pays the price in control, while ironically requires less muscular effort, a good fit for ectomorphs.

As I mentioned, 1 year of swinging the club is going to change your muscles. Not just technique alone. technique is about the release and tempo and so forth.

Yes, I agree. There are also people at the range who have been practicing there far longer than me, I'm talking years. They must be fast twitch from head to toe by now. Many of them are still hitting it short the last time I checked, because the technique wasn't there.

mizzy wrote:

Let me ask you, after your range for the first time, do your muscles ache?
Does it ache as bad now after 1 year after a range?

Actually, no. The muscles have never ached. Trying to grow out of my bookworm days, I was quite the gym rat, working out, trying to build muscle and lose fat. Now THOSE workouts made my muscles ache. So golf was mild by comparison because a swing does not take any muscle to the point of failure as far as I can tell. What ached A LOT from golf initially were the tendons, esp ankle, wrists, etc. I was just swinging COMPLETELY WRONG. Call me Super Flipping Man! My left hip used to kill me after every round of golf.

Now, touch wood, nothing hurts, even after two rounds of golf followed by a few hundred balls at the range.

mizzy wrote:

you need to understand that the body will adapt to changes right away from the first range.

bio-mechanics is the second stage where you work on the technique. I believe I did not touch on that topic.

I think we are in agreement here. Hit enough balls at the range, and the body will adapt. Which is why I focus on technique.

Another example from my driving range, there is a real skinny guy who is so scrawny, he looks like the wind can blow him over. Yet, he can smash the range balls with the driver over the trees at the end of the range, which is a carry of 250m or more.

Apart from technique, what also made a difference was stamina, I almost forgot. Stamina was a HUGE factor for me. Else by the end of the round, coordination is shot and the swing eventually goes to pieces.

Are there people who are bigger/taller/more muscular than me at the range? Yes.

Am I hitting further than some of them? Yes again.

Are there people who are skinnier/shorter/less muscular than me at the range? Yes.

Are some of them hitting further than me? Yes again, some by a wide margin.

The difference? In my opinion, technique.

So now that I am reasonably happy with my technique, I am looking forward to exploring what golf-specific exercises can do. I do agree, the development needs to be carefully balanced to avoid throwing the swing sequence out of kilter.

Golfers used to carefully avoid the gym, thinking it could only be bad for the swing. Then Tiger came along and conventional wisdom took a hike. Now Tour players are taking their gym work as seriously as their range work.

dmateo wrote:

so does that means weight lifting is counter productive in golf? or is that depends on which muscle being trained ?

Weight lifting in the absence of a qualified trainer or without sufficient knowledge on the subject "can" be counter productive.

However, weight lifting done "properly" can make a massive positive difference to your game ... we look up to pga pros for their swing, and equipment etc ... so we must also take note that pros put in a LOT of time in the gym! Tiger Woods may have been one of the first to bring it to our attention ... but I recently read an article on Gary Player in which he outlined his workout routine. This guy is still very fit. Luke Donald and Lee Westwood go through intense workout schedules during the course of the year ... in fact, lee westwood recently stated in a press conference he deadlifted 160kg!!! Golfers are athletes ... and by working on becoming more athletic, you can improve your chances of becoming a better player! look at Gary Woodland .. hes an animal!!

Golf also allows someone who is not athletic to play a decent game! We all look fwd to the fact we will enjoy this beautiful game in our 50s, 60s, and even 70s and onwards!!! Not many other sports allow that.

I have no doubt in my mind ... "fitness" allows us to play a better game today, and will allow us to sustain that level (or close to it) for a much longer time period!

Golf Fitness is a bi-monthly publication worth checking out ... regardless, the internet has loads of information on this subject .. and its FREE!

Lee,

think about JS and Sean Fister. the contrast cannot be anymore stark.

both have technique, both have fast twitch muscles.

Now what was your point again?

guys, let me know once you figure out how to reach 100mph

zx, you should be the one teaching us how to do it.. is it by knocking both knees? hehe

mizzy wrote:

Lee,

think about JS and Sean Fister. the contrast cannot be anymore stark.

both have technique, both have fast twitch muscles.

Now what was your point again?

Surely you can tell which swing looks more fundamentally sound, and therefore which outlier's technique to follow.

DG said some LDer hits the 7 iron shorter than his 9, something to that effect. Well, JS hits the...
wedge 175 yards
6 iron 260 yards
putter 300 yards (if he wants to - video in the link below)

Nothing wrong with his swing there, I would venture.

http://www.golf.com/golf/video/article/0,28224,2023121,00.html

Any PGA Tour Pro would be proud to have a finish that looks like this.



Not many LDer swinging so fast can finish in such beautiful balance.

You started by raising the issue of different fast/slow twitch ratio when I mentioned JS' weight. I said I swing better with better technique compared to when I started. Then you said my fast/slow twitch muscles react and grow the more I swing. Excellent. So with sufficient practice in the correct technique, fast/slow twitch should not be an issue, right?

mizzy wrote:

Lee,
I think getting to 100mph swing speed should be answered by those who have achieved it while hitting the ball sweet.
not to take away the honor from them, but I can swing really relaxed and get that 100mph, but still cannot hit the ball sweet.

So, my point is, regardless of what fast twitch slow twitch muscle fiber ratio you are born with, with sufficient training in the right technique, anyone can get up to 100mph and beyond, carrying 210m, 220m and more (and I mean hit the target, the fairway with it of course, a point which should be obvious). I've seen it with taller, shorter, skinnier, fatter, younger and older guys than me. I sincerely believe even you can do it Mizzy, with the right technique. (Respectfully, if you are not, something is holding you back, and I would wager it ain't fast/slow twitch fibers since you've been playing a few years.)