can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?

TheFocalPoint wrote:

3131T wrote:

Guess another Army day thread n here come the song.......

Here...,,, we go again..., same old SHIT again...

I agree with you...

Steady la bro...

Where?

pippin wrote:

I think there's a BBQ going on later? Y not expound on this then?

Are you talking about the Hacienda Poolside and Grove?

Suzuki wrote:

pippin wrote:

I think there's a BBQ going on later? Y not expound on this then?

Are you talking about the Hacienda Poolside and Grove?

No la... u blur again... At YCK leh... U going?

Suzuki wrote:

Where?

Geylang. You wanna come?

Hahaha.... lorong what? I join you after my wife sleep ok?

Suzuki wrote:

Hahaha.... lorong what? I join you after my wife sleep ok?

Technospaz wrote:

Suzuki wrote:

Where?

Geylang. You wanna come?

What time ? U bachelor tonight anyway.. We sit in ur bmw and go together ?

Begbie wrote:

Technospaz wrote:

Suzuki wrote:

Where?

Geylang. You wanna come?

What time ? U bachelor tonight anyway.. We sit in ur bmw and go together ?

Suzuki, that question was for you.

pippin wrote:

I think there's a BBQ going on later? Y not expound on this then?

Want join ? The lamb very big ..

Technospaz wrote:

Begbie wrote:

Technospaz wrote:

Suzuki wrote:

Where?

Geylang. You wanna come?

What time ? U bachelor tonight anyway.. We sit in ur bmw and go together ?

Suzuki, that question was for you.

Hahaha...Firstly i no BMW, I only got 3 wheeler motor cycle but is convertible, is nice to cruise along the lorongs, hahaha.... Secondly I no bachelor tonight, custom officer will be tagging alone to dinner tonight. Haahaa, so no window shopping.

8 pages of inconsistencies. Sometimes I feel this forum needs a chat window.

Suzuki wrote:

Technospaz wrote:

Begbie wrote:

Technospaz wrote:

Suzuki wrote:

Where?

Geylang. You wanna come?

What time ? U bachelor tonight anyway.. We sit in ur bmw and go together ?

Suzuki, that question was for you.

Hahaha...Firstly i no BMW, I only got 3 wheeler motor cycle but is convertible, is nice to cruise along the lorongs, hahaha.... Secondly I no bachelor tonight, custom officer will be tagging alone to dinner tonight. Haahaa, so no window shopping.

Ur suzuki more stealth than bmw. If someone take picture while we we window shop we can wear full face helmet..

Wahahaha

andrew-golf wrote:

Can I add


Beginners can be fitted...

But no need to be fitted... Till swing is slightly repeatable..

Even if fitted,

Also need to obtain a slightly repeatable swing after that..


Anyone dispute this?

Yes, beginners' clubs gotta be fitted at least to the body type. If Yao Ming picked up golf, clubs gotta be fitted.....tt's what I was referring to I.e. physical build.

IGT wrote:

andrew-golf wrote:

Can I add


Beginners can be fitted...

But no need to be fitted... Till swing is slightly repeatable..

Even if fitted,

Also need to obtain a slightly repeatable swing after that..


Anyone dispute this?

Yes, beginners' clubs gotta be fitted at least to the body type. If Yao Ming picked up golf, clubs gotta be fitted.....tt's what I was referring to I.e. physical build.

same with michael phelps 6' 4" (1.93 m) shoe size US14 and huge paddle like hands - probably needs a fitting ? http://gawker.com/5038018/michael-phelps-freakish-physique-explained

Agree that if someone is as tall as Yao Ming or as short as Frodo would need some fitting.. Hence they always say unless you have freakish physique. As far as statistics goes, Yao Ming and Michael are both more than 3 sigmas away from the mean. I believe we are talking about the average guys here

Speaking abt fitting...I bet Charles Barkley also fit, since he's abt 6.1....but he swing like ****. Not sure abt his score, but definitely the worst swing I ever come across.

any topic with the word club fitting on this forum have great potential of rivaling the Sue Ng case. so its naturally that this thread has once again led to where we stand today.

someone who knows the defence consellor had this to say...Chee Meng is an attorney who is calm and collected, he merely let the ropes out slowly, day-by-day and when there is e nough rope out there, it will happen....so it looks like the saying, when you give the man enough rope...

On Tiger

he is known to be anal and very precise when it comes to this clubs. its a well know fact that when he is given his set of clubs, his sponsors have to line up at least 5 pieces of the best built clubs of each configuration. meaning 5 3i, 5 4i, etc. he would go over and hit each club and select what he likes best and 2nd best. at the end of the trial, he would have his 1st choice and backup set. it has been said that he can also tell if they are pured and spined by just hitting them. he is sensitive about his equipment and the same when it comes to putter selection. no expenses is spared getting his clubs fitted for him.

On fitting beginners

nothing wrong with that as long as the golfer have a reasonable swing and the fitter bothers to ask the right question. typically its good to understand what the golfer aims to be, wants to be and understands that it takes practice, other aspect of the game and physical training to get to the next level as soon as possible. its the same for coaching - a coach can teach a newbie to swing, but if the golfer only swing and practice during his lesson, he will not improve as fast as one who practice, do the drills and practice objectively.

in all cases, its important to know what the beginner has in his bag when he comes to you and the proof is in the pudding...get the golfer to hit shots of variable effort and compare the recommended specs to his own set. better still, built a demo club on the recommended set and have the golfer go out and try it out in is own time and not just indoor in controlled environment. lastly, the secret is in your conversation with the golfer, find out how much time he has to trained and what are his real goals, a good fitting is not in the present, it could be 3 months or 6 months from now. but make sure you talk to your customer and constantly update progress that the fitting is on the right track.

What is club making and what is club fitting?

there is a lot of confusion in this aspect and most people call themselves club fitters without really thinking about what its all about.

i served on the International Club Makers' guild and is the vice president of the Guild as well as the vice president of the Tech committee, mentor and grader. when i grade clubs sent to me, i pay a lot of attention to what the candidate was thinking and what technique he as using when he built the clubs. you can tell a lot but dismantling the clubs and looking at how there were built. to this day, its very easy to tell a Joseph Loo club from a Raymond Er or Eddie or a Jeff Goh.

the chairman on the tech committee is a very detailed retired engineer by the name of Don Johnson. when i first told him about how i grade clubs, he told me he is the same. we do not examine or measure them physically, we dismantle them and empty the contents. the reason is the same. a good set of clubs is built with purpose and well thought through even before the first tip is grinded or the first ferrule installed.

The ICG is beginning to explore club fitting and even the great Don Johnson said, i am a club maker not a club fitter. .

How do one get fitted?

Its not the result that we seek to see on launch monitor, those are the results of an action through an equipment. look closely at the golfer and you will see different movements that is required to generate the effort of making a swing. if the club is too light, too heavy, the MOI is too low, too high, the flex too soft or too stiff. the movements or the biomechanics will tell.

i have been at this for quite some time and have gone through s club head speed measuring device which uses a motion sensor, the vector, the zelocity and finally the trackman. i use the information provided for validation of results but the key is the movement of the golfer when using different clubs. the ICG has also insisted that all facets of examination for club fitting in the futute will have to be accompanied by videos as data is the result and the swing is the occurence which generate the result.

So do you really want to know what a club fitter is?

i am sure you will find some clue on this thread and others.

enough said, i am beginning to bore myself.

also you can tell if someone has an open mind or not. just ask the person what car he drives....

DGman

Skoda!

DGman wrote:

...also you can tell if someone has an open mind or not. just ask the person what car he drives...

On fitting beginners

nothing wrong with that as long as the golfer have a reasonable swing and the fitter bothers to ask the right question. typically its good to understand what the golfer aims to be, wants to be and understands that it takes practice,

DGman

[/quote]

Well put DGman!

Understanding and setting right and clear expectations upfront with the clients are essential in any business we are in. Pushing products and selling solutions are 2 different things.

I see club fitting as 2 stages:
1) Corrective Fitting
I.e. for weekend or leisure players who don't bother to practice and improve,
who will be happy to get the balls air bourne, who get excited when pure a
shot once in a while.

2) Developmental Fitting
Probably for many of us here who are concerned about swing, shots, ball
flights, consistency, accuracy ad etc.

Thanks IGT.......there is also another aspect of fitting.....

Therapeutic Fitting.

an executive works hard in his or her job, they need to reward themselves, so its either the backside or the front gets itchy. front they have to surf other website...

as for back, either a new louis vutton or chanel bag will do the trick for some ladies or a new driver or shaft (even if their current driver is still king of the road) for some golfers.

so i always try to get that right to prevent my customer from get the itch spread to the wrong place...just in jest.

the weekend is here and we should let our hair (or whats left of it) down.

DGman

DGman wrote:

Thanks IGT.......there is also another aspect of fitting.....

Therapeutic Fitting.

an executive works hard in his or her job, they need to reward themselves, so its either the backside or the front gets itchy. front they have to surf other website...

as for back, either a new louis vutton or chanel bag will do the trick for some ladies or a new driver or shaft (even if their current driver is still king of the road) for some golfers.

so i always try to get that right to prevent my customer from get the itch spread to the wrong place...just in jest.

the weekend is here and we should let our hair (or whats left of it) down.

DGman

@DGman : thanks for the saturday lesson

I always thought golf fitters shd also perhaps consider studying Ergonomics or Human factors which is primarily concerned with the ‘fit’ between the user, equipment and their environments to help them better understand the golfer. It takes account of the golfer's capabilities and limitations in seeking to ensure that tasks, functions, information and the environment suit each user. I am sure this is covered in some of the trainings to become a club fitter or for that matter club maker but the subject is one that is far more complex than meets the eye. To assess the fit between a person and the used technology, human factors specialists or ergonomists consider the job (activity) being done and the demands on the user; the equipment used (its size, shape, and how appropriate it is for the task), and the information used (how it is presented, accessed, and changed). Ergonomics draws on many disciplines in its study of humans and their environments, including anthropometry, biomechanics, mechanical engineering, industrial engineering, industrial design, information design, kinesiology, physiology and psychology.

May i introduce to u Henry Dreyfuss, who is the guru who basically wrote the book. See http://www.hda.net/ . I first encountered him as a young design student in America and his pioneering efforts then in the 70s paved the way for its gradual compulsory place in courses in industrial design, product design and design engineering courses worldwide.


Later the Japs basically advanced this area (like the way they took over from USA other areas like quality control and TQM and zero defects methodologies and beat the Americans at their own game) and I recall Mazda introduced "kansei" engineering (roughly translateed to Feeling Engineering) which dealt with the emotional qualities of human factors/ ergonomics... eg the purr of the engine or the solid sound of a car door closing which imparts a rather subjective notion of good quality which is hard to measure but appreciated by the customers.

DGman wrote:

...............in all cases, its important to know what the beginner has in his bag when he comes to you and the proof is in the pudding...get the golfer to hit shots of variable effort and compare the recommended specs to his own set. better still, built a demo club on the recommended set and have the golfer go out and try it out in is own time and not just indoor in controlled environment. .............. it could be 3 months or 6 months from now. but make sure you talk to your customer and constantly update progress that the fitting is on the right track.

I think the above comment/approach of yours is pragmatic and it definitely made sense. A couple of months ago or so a few GRian argued in one of the controversal threads that fitting the club in a controlled indoor environment is good enough.

DGman wrote:

Its not the result that we seek to see on launch monitor, those are the results of an action through an equipment. look closely at the golfer and you will see different movements that is required to generate the effort of making a swing. if the club is too light, too heavy, the MOI is too low, too high, the flex too soft or too stiff. the movements or the biomechanics will tell.

i have been at this for quite some time and have gone through s club head speed measuring device which uses a motion sensor, the vector, the zelocity and finally the trackman. i use the information provided for validation of results but the key is the movement of the golfer when using different clubs. the ICG has also insisted that all facets of examination for club fitting in the futute will have to be accompanied by videos as data is the result and the swing is the occurence which generate the result.

I agree with you again on the above ... We cannot just look at the results on the trackman or flightscope.