Golf Club Forgiveness: Good or Bad?

Today's cavity-back golf irons have built in the element of forgiveness which basically reduces the effects of a poor swing/contact with the ball. In the past, clubheads were basically blades and needed to be struck on the "sweet spot" for a decent ball flight.

Such game improvement clubs provides forgiveness which allows a bad shot, struck off-centre, to travel almost as far as one with perfect contact plus help launch the ball a little higher in the air with less jolt on the hands and arms.

Does forgiveness thro use of such GI clubs reinforce our bad swing habits? Will a golfer truly improve using such GI clubs or shd he/she slowly wean away from them? That is, move away from GI irons, hybrids/ rescue clubs and back to blades/ long irons in order to truly feel, understand and recognise their bad shots and take the necessary corrective measures. If bad shots are constantly masked by improved golf club designs; will more practice with such GI clubs reinforce the notion that their repeatable bad swing is actually ok?

Or is this taking a step backwards in the progress of the game as GI clubs are probably here to stay seeing their proliferation and popularity, even amongst touring pros... Your views please.

Are you a Toastmaster?

Birdman wrote:

Are you a Toastmaster?

haha no lah me just an ordinary beginner social golfer loitering about in the Republic, trying to understand this fascinating game n its idiosyncrasies esp how it has progressed thro the years in the areas of product innovation....

You are too modest.

Ordinary beginner social golfer? I think not.

It takes a level of understanding to delve into the insidiousness of game improvement cavity backs, most ordinary beginner social golfers (as you say) are more than happy to just hit the ball straight, long, and high.

Don't shortchange yourself bro.

By the way, this profound question you offer up has been extensively discussed before in GR. It lies somewhere in the depths and dusty dungeons of the forum. No worries though, if I may point you in the direction of the search function which works as simply as it does in Google search, just type in the key words of your discussion and you will be rewarded with a plethora of views. You might have to blow off the dust, but I'm sure the posts are still relevant to your proposed discussion.

Hope I've been of help.

Ah this topic always surface up again and again without fail

logically its best to use the most efficient tool to do a job....which in this case means using a friendlier club. An offset cavity is supposed to be friendlier. with a larger head it also promise to deliver higher MOI.

however visual can help individual instill confidence hence you may find a rather high handicapper using a more demanding club like a blade with a minimal offset and a lower MOI.

Most people may find that it makes more sense to have this individual change to a friendlier club with a higher MOI but the truth is we do not know how his or her brain process the visual aspect. as a clubfitter, we can use information off the launch monitor to determine the consistency and quality of shots.

there was a lady golfer who came to me to have her clubs checked. she is barely 5 foot 3 and is probably in her forties. her clubs - a titty blade with S300 and her previous set was an X100 on a honma blade. i insisted that she took a couple of swings on clubs of different weights and MOI. then remarked that she has made the right choice of using at least an S300 and a blade. her swing speed is not fast but its not textbook deduction that we have to watch out for. in fact when she uses a club with a higher MOI and a lighter shaft, her biomechancis was closed to breaking down.

i have talked about the relevance of total weight and other subjects on MOI before. one of the most important issue in using launch monitor reading is understand that the reading is a result and the occurrence is the cause. Do not use the result as a reference but instead try and focus on improving the occurrence.

its the same when you are making a choice for buying a new set or shaft. don't focus on the good shot, try and determine if the no of bad shots is reduced and if the result of a bad shot can be compensated through choices of club head design or flex. however if a 20 handicapper finds that the blade produce better results with less error, who are we to tell him or her its the wrong choice cos we do not see what they see.

you may want to read this if time and patience permit.

Relevance of Total Weight

DGman

commercial break..

i remember when i first handed over the BFG irons to Russell, i said i am sorry but we do have quite a bit of offset on the #4. his answer was i loved the offset.

using the most difficult irons should be the best.

Just like in life, if you can withstand the toughest environment, then you can withstand anything.

If not...then do what BMT....mite as welll go club med.


I use MP52

Duval....i have said this to you in person....so i will repeat this again.

if you right ear is itchy, raise your right hand to scratch. don't wrap your left hand around your head to scratch the right side.


DGman

Many things have been said on this topic on both sides. At the risk of repeating, for the once a week social golfer, the time it takes to achieve ballstriking proficiency may be an unaffordable luxury. So forgiveness helps.

For the hardcore enthusiast, the pleasure of ballstriking may be in itself a pleasure. And the discipline and quality of ballstriking achieved will pay off in the long run.

Just to share...

The young man who bought my MP52 started off playing a Burner iron and he rued the handsy swing it encouraged. He struggled a bit with the MP52, but bought it nevertheless because he wanted to improve his swing with its feedback.

On the other end of the scale, another friend of mine shoots par or under with CB and hybrids, but would like to the get the sort of compression I seem to be getting from the blades. He plays well on cowgrass and less well on bermuda which punishes more when the impact is not crisp when his swing gets a bit handsy.

Got a true gentleman, beginner golfer, whom I am helping with his swing. Very forgiving iron set. I mean, talk about shovels, if you'll pardon the expression. Beginners tend to use hands, we've all been there. Problem is, his club was so forgiving, it lets him get away with it. So it was a challenge to get him to change his handsy, wristy, flippy swing - tried every trick in the book. Until I put my 9 iron blade in his hands. Then he gets it immediately. Then the only way for him to move the ball was with big muscles, not wrist flicking. Impressive for me to observe he can hit my PX6.0 9-iron a decent distance for a beginner (same distance as his graphite-shafted forgiving 9 iron).

By no means a critique - forgiveness has its place for sure. But just a note of caution on what it lets one get away with to ensure bad habits don't result. Just my observation from the cases I've come across.

God bless.

jeffman88 wrote:

Today's cavity-back golf irons have built in the element of forgiveness which basically reduces the effects of a poor swing/contact with the ball. In the past, clubheads were basically blades and needed to be struck on the "sweet spot" for a decent ball flight.

Such game improvement clubs provides forgiveness which allows a bad shot, struck off-centre, to travel almost as far as one with perfect contact plus help launch the ball a little higher in the air with less jolt on the hands and arms.

Does forgiveness thro use of such GI clubs reinforce our bad swing habits? Will a golfer truly improve using such GI clubs or shd he/she slowly wean away from them? That is, move away from GI irons, hybrids/ rescue clubs and back to blades/ long irons in order to truly feel, understand and recognise their bad shots and take the necessary corrective measures. If bad shots are constantly masked by improved golf club designs; will more practice with such GI clubs reinforce the notion that their repeatable bad swing is actually ok?

Or is this taking a step backwards in the progress of the game as GI clubs are probably here to stay seeing their proliferation and popularity, even amongst touring pros... Your views please.

Blades are not that difficult, eg the ikasu ones are very forgiving. Check the offset in the specs. If a cavity back is easy, come try the miura cb-202,
U did hit quite well with my blades the last time, not much diff with yr cavity

What is the difference between Sigmaone's Miura Tournament Blade and Lee36328's Miura LE small Blade???

Slot of folks out there are intimidated by blades. Maybe it's the stigma that only pros can use them. I started golf playing a set of mixing mp14s. Then to Mp33s. Got to about a 9 handicap then cause of injury, started struggling w my game. Alot of ppl then encouraged me to get cavity irons which would be easier to hit. Fact was. I wasn't hitting my blades badly.. my entire game was just off. Nevertheless, I tot what the heck. They've got a point. Why make life difficult for myself when the game is already tough to begin with. Honestly, I felt not much difference comparing the cavity backs vs my mp33s. In fact I found myself struggling with accuracy w the cavity backs.

After my clubs got stolen, I had no choice but to use my old 33s and borrowed woods n a very old blade putter. Shot 10 over on the front and even par the back 9. With 2 birdies and an eagle. Not only was I getting the ball on in regulation, but I was hitting them close to the pin.

In golf, there really never is such a thing as should or shouldn't. It's always up to the individual and what suits him best. Some touring pros play w cb's. Some combos and some all blades.

Same like the topic about belly putters. So much talk about it giving unfair advantage. Some use it and improve tremendously, some simply can't putt with them.

Sorry for the long posts.. :p

Dan5 wrote:

What is the difference between Sigmaone's Miura Tournament Blade and Lee36328's Miura LE small Blade???

Well, as a non-expert, just a consumer, for one thing, the size as the name indicates. Small blade is smaller.

Not for me to comment on other differences, but you can check it out on the Miura website.

http://www.miuragolf.com/series57_blade.asp

http://www.miuragolf.com/shop_blade2007.asp

This photo below compares the two in terms of size.



Is it forgiving? True story to share, not knocking one type of club or another, a friend of mine who is a low handicapper on cb tried mine but could not launch it. Not saying I am any good but in this case his hands-dominated swing will not get the job done. A certain amount of compression is needed.

Agree with DGman in today's society best tool for the job! . Like Lim Swee Say's productivity call for Singapore workers to do it "Cheaper Better Faster" ...

I am wondering if that is good enough for us if we wanted to take that extra step to be a “better” golfer?.. i know i may be opening another can of worms here as many will then say "better" meaning what?
single hcp? distance? accuracy? gracefulness in swing? becoming a teaching pro r pro on tour? deeper knowledge of the sport? understanding fitting and related biomechanics?

I try to think of analogies relating to the issue :

a) automatic transmission in cars vs manual stick shifts or
b) quartz digital swatch watches vs analogue mechanical timepieces
c) ready to drink wine w screwcaps vs cellared wines w cork caps
d) present day Hotel Tekong BMT vs yesterday’s Terok2 Tekong BMT (duval’s analogy)

I drive an automatic car whilst I passed my driving on a manual car but hv never owned one since passing the driving test. An auto car no need to think just step on gas pedal and go. Let the auto trans hide all my heavy footedness n poor gear changes as I race to the golf course. Will ferraris hv automatic transmission soon?

I use my iphone to tell time which is infinitely more efficient and friendlier than my old mechanical analogue watch. No need to know how to wind, service, oil, change dates etc – all auto updated. Are mechanical watches like Rolexes and Omegas going the dinosaur route?

I drink $15 red wine regularly vs the cellarable vintages I keep in my winefridge for that special occasion. No need to decant, air and worry about removing cork or cork drying out n getting stuck in bottle…. Are new world wines better?

Today’s BMT recruits learn more n hv a more positive NS experience but are considered lacking physical/ mental toughness compared to yesterday’s recruits who preferred to eat snake and often considered NS a waste of time… Are today's NSmen better? SAF itself is grappling with the issue .. everytime an accident happens all training stops!

Which is better? Is Lee’s reasoning that speed towards results is the only reason why we go for a more efficicient (some say easier/ cheaper/ productive etc) option. In other words is the END more important than the PROCESS….? I used to hold to this viewpoint too for a long time but as I age I am slowly appreciating more the PROCESS is equally and possibly more important?

I hv only been using friendly wide-soled CB GI irons (only lately made the switch from the more economical cast to slimmer forged ones albeit more ex) but secretly admire and wish I could be proficient in swinging the sleek super thin blades or even baby blades of Sebastian's incl long irons….butpresently still lack the resolve to go thro that long learning curve which my swing coaches concur and hv advised me to stick to CB GI irons. Sigh…

hence my dilemma.

btw DGman: that article RELEVANCE OF TOTAL WEIGHT you wrote is an interesting read indeed and truly appreciate your kind sharing of it...

jeffman88 wrote:

Agree with DGman in today's society best tool for the job! . Like Lim Swee Say's productivity call for Singapore workers to do it "Cheaper Better Faster" ...

I am wondering if that is good enough for us if we wanted to take that extra step to be a “better” golfer?.. i know i may be opening another can of worms here as many will then say "better" meaning what?
single hcp? distance? accuracy? gracefulness in swing? becoming a teaching pro r pro on tour? deeper knowledge of the sport? understanding fitting and related biomechanics?

I try to think of analogies relating to the issue :

a) automatic transmission in cars vs manual stick shifts or
b) quartz digital swatch watches vs analogue mechanical timepieces
c) ready to drink wine w screwcaps vs cellared wines w cork caps
d) present day Hotel Tekong BMT vs yesterday’s Terok2 Tekong BMT (duval’s analogy)

I drive an automatic car whilst I passed my driving on a manual car but hv never owned one since passing the driving test. An auto car no need to think just step on gas pedal and go. Let the auto trans hide all my heavy footedness n poor gear changes as I race to the golf course. Will ferraris hv automatic transmission soon?

I use my iphone to tell time which is infinitely more efficient and friendlier than my old mechanical analogue watch. No need to know how to wind, service, oil, change dates etc – all auto updated. Are mechanical watches like Rolexes and Omegas going the dinosaur route?

I drink $15 red wine regularly vs the cellarable vintages I keep in my winefridge for that special occasion. No need to decant, air and worry about removing cork or cork drying out n getting stuck in bottle…. Are new world wines better?

Today’s BMT recruits learn more n hv a more positive NS experience but are considered lacking physical/ mental toughness compared to yesterday’s recruits who preferred to eat snake and often considered NS a waste of time… Are today's NSmen better? SAF itself is grappling with the issue .. everytime an accident happens all training stops!

Which is better? Is Lee’s reasoning that speed towards results is the only reason why we go for a more efficicient (some say easier/ cheaper/ productive etc) option. In other words is the END more important than the PROCESS….? I used to hold to this viewpoint too for a long time but as I age I am slowly appreciating more the PROCESS is equally and possibly more important?

I hv only been using friendly wide-soled CB GI irons (only lately made the switch from the more economical cast to slimmer forged ones albeit more ex) but secretly admire and wish I could be proficient in swinging the sleek super thin blades or even baby blades of Sebastian's incl long irons….butpresently still lack the resolve to go thro that long learning curve which my swing coaches concur and hv advised me to stick to CB GI irons. Sigh…

hence my dilemma.

btw DGman: that article RELEVANCE OF TOTAL WEIGHT you wrote is an interesting read indeed and truly appreciate your kind sharing of it...

Maybe u should buy a set of blades, or the SMALL blades for that extra occassion, and play yr social games with the ultra forgiving cavity backs.

SigmaOne wrote:

jeffman88 wrote:

Today's cavity-back golf irons have built in the element of forgiveness which basically reduces the effects of a poor swing/contact with the ball. In the past, clubheads were basically blades and needed to be struck on the "sweet spot" for a decent ball flight.

Such game improvement clubs provides forgiveness which allows a bad shot, struck off-centre, to travel almost as far as one with perfect contact plus help launch the ball a little higher in the air with less jolt on the hands and arms.

Does forgiveness thro use of such GI clubs reinforce our bad swing habits? Will a golfer truly improve using such GI clubs or shd he/she slowly wean away from them? That is, move away from GI irons, hybrids/ rescue clubs and back to blades/ long irons in order to truly feel, understand and recognise their bad shots and take the necessary corrective measures. If bad shots are constantly masked by improved golf club designs; will more practice with such GI clubs reinforce the notion that their repeatable bad swing is actually ok?

Or is this taking a step backwards in the progress of the game as GI clubs are probably here to stay seeing their proliferation and popularity, even amongst touring pros... Your views please.

Blades are not that difficult, eg the ikasu ones are very forgiving. Check the offset in the specs. If a cavity back is easy, come try the miura cb-202,
U did hit quite well with my blades the last time, not much diff with yr cavity

I agree. My ikasu blades are comparative easier than the miuras blades. But the miuras are just so handsome.

I wish I could manufacture a set of combo clubs, blades for short irons and cavity back for the longer ones, to solve Jeff's and Sam's problems. Will start saving $$$

SigmaOne wrote:

I wish I could manufacture a set of combo clubs, blades for short irons and cavity back for the longer ones, to solve Jeff's and Sam's problems. Will start saving $$$

Didn't BFG offer this before when they were selling Ikasu(s)? I remember siaw8 got a combo set with blades for short irons and cavity back for the longer ones?

I believe major brands are also offering combo sets now... Tiga Wood is gaming a Nike Combo set...

SigmaOne wrote:

I wish I could manufacture a set of combo clubs, blades for short irons and cavity back for the longer ones, to solve Jeff's and Sam's problems. Will start saving $$$

Seb, thanks for the kind thoughts. I am not a good golfer, and worse a lazy one. I used the ikasu blades only bcos they looked quite nice. After I saw the miuras, I've been thinking I should change liao. Nvr consider whether it will help in my game or not. Hahaha.

Got trade in program for my ikasu blades? If yes, I'll take a set of the miuras blades lah. Damn good price.

This video may answer some of the questions raised by T/S.

Pardon for my stupid question,I was wondering does Forgiveness affects distance? What happens if a pro uses a beginner set on tour?

Hey Guys...

Thanks Jeffman for the invite to respond to this thread. Having read most of the thread, all those read, make valid points. I guess this thread can be a very sensitive topic. Like BMW vs Merc, Nikon Vs Canon and so forth.

The question one should answer would probably be, how proficient the golfer is (New, old, professional, season golfer but a hack <like myself >). But yet again, it would also boil down to the personal preference, and who that person learns golf from.

I have had the pleasure of going under a number of coaches, both in Singapore and while i was living in Australia. And i have been lucky that, practically all of them have never influenced me to choose a specific brand nor type of club to use. But my Australian Coach have asked me to make an investment to get a set of clubs that would take me to the next level in my golf.

i started my golf using cavity backs and I jumped to the Maxfli Revolution Black dot (also cavity back) with S300 shafts. that set took me to the next level. But somehow, I have always like the blades.

My first love was the old Ben Hogan Apex Tour muscle back with a slight cavity back. It was easier to hit than a full on blade. But the first full on blade that I loved was the Mizuno MP 32.

Despite my love for the blades, I was actually not at the level i loved to be to hit with the blades properly. I would probably land 3 out of 5 shots, CLOSE to the sweet spot. Maybe 1 shot, i would hit dead on the sweet spot.

I was introduced to Mark Higgs, and I actually went to Mark with the intention to find a suitable shaft for my fairway woods. But he have me hit a shots in the simulator, and we found out that I was not a consistant striker of the ball. My sweet spots were not centralised... about 90% of the time. My timing was off, and my impact was not sweet.

Then he pieced a GI club with a wide sole for me to hit with, and my grouping actually shrank. But unfortunately, i was actually not happy because i only went there for a shaft replacement for my woods. And also a "pride" thing, that i did not wish to play with a GI set of clubs.

But when I was working with Winstons, training to be a PING fitter, i understood the technology available to help ones game.

With things like Game Improvement clubs, it will help steepen your learning curve. Why i say steep, is because you can learn and hit your ball faster on your game improvement irons. you will hit more balls and have a decent ball flight, at the start of your learning game. But you will reach your plateau much faster.

With Blades or muscle backs, your learning curve will be flattened out, in opposite to a GI set of clubs.

But depending on the golfer, if you are able to take disappointments and you love playing with Performance Clubs, by all means, go for it.

The modern technology like Game Improvement irons, rescue clubs and other game easing technolgy, is all part of the industry to help get more golfers into the game. Not everyone is a star athelete.

If you benefit from that technology, and you don't mind using it, by all means. But don't get influenced by anyone to say that you MUST get it. I still have not liked using a rescue club. But i have one.

Just as one of my coach will say, "Did Arnald Palmer, Gary Player or Jack Nickluas win their majors with such clubs..??"

TigerBeer wrote:

Pardon for my stupid question,I was wondering does Forgiveness affects distance? What happens if a pro uses a beginner set on tour?

Hi TigerBeer,

Forgiveness does not affect distance. But if you are a new golfer or a high handicapper and using a hard club to play, it will affect your distance.

Technically, a pro "should be able" to play with beginner clubs. But the clubs will not be maximised to his/ her swing, they will not like the feeling of the club, and they will not like how the club impacts the ball (no feeling).

Hope this helps.

P.S. its not a stupid question.

SigmaOne wrote:

Maybe u should buy a set of blades, or the SMALL blades for that extra occassion, and play yr social games with the ultra forgiving cavity backs.

Actually Seb u do hv a good suggestion there!.. a set of blades to torture myself at the range with the hope of becoming more sensitive to feedback and feeling the good shots whilst using my CB GIs for social games and coaching lessons ok must save some $$$ now...

Dimples wrote:

Hey Guys...

Thanks Jeffman for the invite to respond to this thread. Having read most of the thread, all those read, make valid points. I guess this thread can be a very sensitive topic. Like BMW vs Merc, Nikon Vs Canon and so forth.

The question one should answer would probably be, how proficient the golfer is (New, old, professional, season golfer but a hack <like myself >). But yet again, it would also boil down to the personal preference, and who that person learns golf from.

I have had the pleasure of going under a number of coaches, both in Singapore and while i was living in Australia. And i have been lucky that, practically all of them have never influenced me to choose a specific brand nor type of club to use. But my Australian Coach have asked me to make an investment to get a set of clubs that would take me to the next level in my golf.

i started my golf using cavity backs and I jumped to the Maxfli Revolution Black dot (also cavity back) with S300 shafts. that set took me to the next level. But somehow, I have always like the blades.

My first love was the old Ben Hogan Apex Tour muscle back with a slight cavity back. It was easier to hit than a full on blade. But the first full on blade that I loved was the Mizuno MP 32.

Despite my love for the blades, I was actually not at the level i loved to be to hit with the blades properly. I would probably land 3 out of 5 shots, CLOSE to the sweet spot. Maybe 1 shot, i would hit dead on the sweet spot.

I was introduced to Mark Higgs, and I actually went to Mark with the intention to find a suitable shaft for my fairway woods. But he have me hit a shots in the simulator, and we found out that I was not a consistant striker of the ball. My sweet spots were not centralised... about 90% of the time. My timing was off, and my impact was not sweet.

Then he pieced a GI club with a wide sole for me to hit with, and my grouping actually shrank. But unfortunately, i was actually not happy because i only went there for a shaft replacement for my woods. And also a "pride" thing, that i did not wish to play with a GI set of clubs.

But when I was working with Winstons, training to be a PING fitter, i understood the technology available to help ones game.

With things like Game Improvement clubs, it will help steepen your learning curve. Why i say steep, is because you can learn and hit your ball faster on your game improvement irons. you will hit more balls and have a decent ball flight, at the start of your learning game. But you will reach your plateau much faster.

With Blades or muscle backs, your learning curve will be flattened out, in opposite to a GI set of clubs.

But depending on the golfer, if you are able to take disappointments and you love playing with Performance Clubs, by all means, go for it.

The modern technology like Game Improvement irons, rescue clubs and other game easing technolgy, is all part of the industry to help get more golfers into the game. Not everyone is a star athelete.

If you benefit from that technology, and you don't mind using it, by all means. But don't get influenced by anyone to say that you MUST get it. I still have not liked using a rescue club. But i have one.

Just as one of my coach will say, "Did Arnald Palmer, Gary Player or Jack Nickluas win their majors with such clubs..??"

Dimples thanks for your contribution.. Appreciate ur candid sharing of ur experiences... I like your comment that with GIs one will hit the learning plateau faster... akin to "hentak kaki" or stagnate...