New Thesis on what's wrong with Tiger's swing

Lee36328 wrote:

Turbo wrote:

Golfers like Fred Couple and Angel Caberra who are not muscular and look over weight can drive the ball 300 yards in excess. The moral of the story is, one does not need rippling muscle like Camilio Villegas or Tiger Woods to drive far.

That is a very good point...

How about this for a moral of the story...

Tiger finished T30 in a tournament won by Bryce Molder.

Bryce Molder has no left pectoral muscle at all.

He also has Poland Syndrome, which meant that his left hand is smaller than his right hand.

Check it out.

http://www.polands-syndrome.com/news/brycemolder.html

Food for thought...

Bryce drove the green on the par 4 17 during the play offs like he was hitting a pitching wedge, almost the same spot 3 times.

I wonder why is TW building so much muscles for? Many of the tour pros drive very long without those muscles. Look at Dustin Johnson and Bubba Watson, to name a few, and they are bombing the fairways. My opinion would be for TW to lose some of those hulking muscles which may help him improve his game and have better feel for the putter. Remember he was once one of the best putters around.

P/s: Muscles are probably for 19th holes, if that's the intention of TW, to show his appeal to the opposite sex.

i remember in one interview, he said he does strength training so that he can be the fittest out on the course. He want to be stronger than the rest of the field, on the last few holes, after four rounds on Sunday.

but to do that, he just need to be like those ironman triathlon guys, slim but muscular. Not like UFC middleweight fighters

TDO wrote:

I wonder why is TW building so much muscles for? Many of the tour pros drive very long without those muscles. Look at Dustin Johnson and Bubba Watson, to name a few, and they are bombing the fairways. My opinion would be for TW to lose some of those hulking muscles which may help him improve his game and have better feel for the putter. Remember he was once one of the best putters around.

P/s: Muscles are probably for 19th holes, if that's the intention of TW, to show his appeal to the opposite sex.

I have to agree with you on your last paragraph ...

Jaime Sadlowski who is slender and tall but he is an ex-RE/MAX Long Drive Champ! Same for the over-weight Phil Mickelson with those filmsy-looking chests/breasts hanging infront of him but he can still drive further than the more well-endowed TW ...

I agree.. For those who played with Louthmouth, that chilli pady outdrove the muscular asahi and the overweight me any time

More muscles = More Strength = Less speed.
Less muscles = More flexibility = More Speed.

That's my understanding.

TDO wrote:

More muscles = More Strength = Less speed.
Less muscles = More flexibility = More Speed.

That's my understanding.

Bro TDO you fall under which cat?

I fall under Senior Citizen Category. So it's not listed above. Hee! Hee! Meng Teck should know how I look like. Unfortunately, I cannot find my photo posted by MGK during the Tiger Medal. Photos posted shown are mainly the better players, I think.

Yah they only post the top ranking players

TDO is definitely looks fitter then me. Similar to KLT, aged muscleman

Bro TDO what does TDO stands for? Training devt officer?

Joshua wrote:

Bro TDO what does TDO stands for? Training devt officer?

Means "ni buay kia" The December One. Ha! Ha!

mengteck71 wrote:

TDO is definitely looks fitter then me. Similar to KLT, aged muscleman

But, but, you consistently outdrive us except Guy. Wah! He drive bery long wor. BTW, me got no muscle lah!

TDO wrote:

mengteck71 wrote:

TDO is definitely looks fitter then me. Similar to KLT, aged muscleman

But, but, you consistently outdrive us except Guy. Wah! He drive bery long wor. BTW, me got no muscle lah!

There are lots of cases of players who lost their performance after putting on muscle...

So it may not be what you might wish for...

Lee36328 wrote:

There are lots of cases of players who lost their performance after putting on muscle...

Here is the answer to all your questions/comments on why smaller built individual like Rory Mcllroy, Charles Howell II or Lam Chee Beng can drive the ball further than bigger or more muscular guy.

Turbo wrote:

Lee36328 wrote:

There are lots of cases of players who lost their performance after putting on muscle...

Here is the answer to all your questions/comments on why smaller built individual like Rory McCroy, Charles Howell II or Lam Chee Beng can drive the ball further than bigger or more muscular guy.

Turbo, my sincere thanks for the video.

It's not the first time I've seen it. Here are my comments.

It's an intelligent attempt by Somax, to be sure, to market their product. This video however is much-discussed and roundly dismissed/laughed at by the knowing folks in Golfwrx.

Think about it. Here are some reasons why.

1. The video claims there are no speed multipliers in the arms. WRONG. This is the biggest tip-off, and the biggest fallacy of their argument, which causes their entire premise to therefore fall apart.

2. The video shows all kinds of measurements about hip degrees, multipliers, total distance of the drive, etc, and yet, mysteriously, does not mention the club head speed. For something talking about speed multipliers, a bit odd, no? Here's why. Total distance is significantly influenced by:
- wind
- elevation
- humidity
- condition of fairway (rock-hard will run much longer)
etc.

So, if the actual club head speed was mentioned, I bet we'll see that the speed was no big deal after all, and the conditions above were used to achieve maximum distance. That's why no mention of club head speed in a video about achieving higher speed via the 'speed multiplier'.

There are MANY more elements involved in generating speed apart from the hips, (although admittedly, the hips are an important part, to be sure.)

For Somax to claim otherwise in a thinly disguised commercial is just silly.

No offence to Turbo, I know you meant well.

In my twisted logic (so it 90% wrong) the tool is only as good as the user. If everything else is equal then muscle should give you an edge. the problem is the other factor are never equal, so all bets are off

Lee36328 wrote:

Turbo, my sincere thanks for the video.

It's not the first time I've seen it. Here are my comments.

It's an intelligent attempt by Somax, to be sure, to market their product. This video however is much-discussed and roundly dismissed/laughed at by the knowing folks in Golfwrx.

Think about it. Here are some reasons why.

1. The video claims there are no speed multipliers in the arms. WRONG. This is the biggest tip-off, and the biggest fallacy of their argument, which causes their entire premise to therefore fall apart.

2. The video shows all kinds of measurements about hip degrees, multipliers, total distance of the drive, etc, and yet, mysteriously, does not mention the club head speed. For something talking about speed multipliers, a bit odd, no? Here's why. Total distance is significantly influenced by:
- wind
- elevation
- humidity
- condition of fairway (rock-hard will run much longer)
etc.

So, if the actual club head speed was mentioned, I bet we'll see that the speed was no big deal after all, and the conditions above were used to achieve maximum distance. That's why no mention of club head speed in a video about achieving higher speed via the 'speed multiplier'.

There are MANY more elements involved in generating speed apart from the hips, (although admittedly, the hips are an important part, to be sure.)
No offence to Turbo, I know you meant well.

Bro, actually I am not referring to the equipment marketed by Somax. I referring to ones hip turning speed. I always believe that fast hip turn is a primary component of generating speed. Lets not talk about those external element like wind, atmospheric temperature, humidity, etc. which is beyond our control. However, most young guys with very flexible body turn too fast and not able to cope with the speed ... The result can be disastrous!

Alot of talks on Rory McLLory's tremendous hip turning speed that helps him to generate distance which is almost impossible for a person his built (he is about 5 ft 8in tall) to achieve. There is a UTube video about Rory's hip turning theory but I could not find it at this juncture.

Just take a look at all those golfers (e.g. Bubba Watson, JB Holm, Rory McLLory, TW, Dustin Johnson, etc.) who can drive the ball at least 300 yards, they emphasize alot on turning their hip on the down swing plus the ability to flush the sweetspot of the clubface against the ball. These are two of the vital factors to the speed equation. Even the legendary B Hogan also emphasized alot on hip turning on the down swing.

Cheers,
Turbo

Turbo wrote:

Bro, actually I am not referring to the equipment marketed by Somax. I referring to ones hip turning speed. I always believe that fast hip turn is a primary component of generating speed. Lets not talk about those external element like wind, atmospheric temperature, humidity, etc. which is beyond our control. However, most young guys with very flexible body turn too fast and not able to cope with the speed ... The result can be disastrous!

Alot of talks on Rory McLLory's tremendous hip turning speed that helps him to generate distance which is almost impossible for a person his built (he is about 5 ft 8in tall) to achieve. There is a UTube video about Rory's hip turning theory but I could not find it at this juncture.

Just take a look at all those golfers (e.g. Bubba Watson, JB Holm, Rory McLLory, TW, Dustin Johnson, etc.) who can drive the ball at least 300 yards, they emphasize alot on turning their hip on the down swing plus the ability to flush the sweetspot of the clubface against the ball. These are two of the vital factors to the speed equation. Even the legendary B Hogan also emphasized alot on hip turning on the down swing.

Cheers,
Turbo

Speed of hip turn is an important element, one many elements, but not The Main Element.

Using the 'multiplier' argument that the video used, is just misleading the audience to sell a product. Youtube is full of such videos.

Ben Hogan emphasized many things. There is an entire section on Golfwrx discussion Hogan for those interested to see what Ben's swing was all about. Check it out.

Lee, perhaps you might want to tell us what is The Main Element since you don't think hip turning is the main element in generating speed & distance.

To me these are the main elements in generating speed = Distance

1) Right Swing Plane
2) Smooth tempo
3) Hip turning speed
4) Flushing the clubface sweet spot against the ball
5) Lots of Lag
6) Creating Width in one swing
7) Angle of attack at the ball (e.g. hit down at the ball especially for irons) inorder to create the right amount of divot
8) Right weight shift and leg works
9) Right Swing Sequence
10) Right Grip and set-up

In order to emphasize the above elements clearly, take a look at the below video which appropriately touches on all the above-mentioned except maybe (2) ... These are the reasons why a small built guy like Rickie who can generate tremendous amount of speed.

I love rickie fowlers transition. I can't achieve the same transition turning my hips while arms still going back

You first stated Main Element as:

Turbo wrote:

Here is the answer to all your questions/comments on why smaller built individual like Rory McCroy, Charles Howell II or Lam Chee Beng can drive the ball further than bigger or more muscular guy.

- Hip Turn - Somax Video

The answer to ALL questions? Bold claim.

You've since revised
Main Element - second version as:

Turbo wrote:

To me these are the main elements in generating speed = Distance

1) Right Swing Plane
2) Smooth tempo
3) Hip turning speed
4) Flushing the clubface sweet spot against the ball
5) Lots of Lag
6) Creating Width in one swing
7) Angle of attack at the ball (e.g. hit down at the ball especially for irons) inorder to create the right amount of divot
8) Right weight shift and leg works
9) Right Swing Sequence
10) Right Grip and set-up

Whoa! That's a long list of The Main Element!

I like where this is going. It may soon turn into a book.

The second version is better, although not complete, and some points should not be there,. At least you're no longer claiming one single element as the 'answer to all questions.'

If we keep the discussion focused on specific body part, and the hip being one of them, then the list becomes more instructive. For example, "flushing the clubface sweet spot against the ball" is the desired outcome, the question we're discussing is how to achieve it.

I could say, THE MAIN ELEMENT THAT ANSWERS ALL QUESTIONS IS.... ballspeed!

I'd probably get a response like, no sh!t Sherlock. How do we get it??

And there are a couple more such givens in there.

Small note. There is nothing wrong with Rickie's tempo. You are confusing transition with tempo. Rickie's transition is quick. Ernie's transition is smooth. Both their tempos are fine.

Tempo is one of those words thrown about by golf magazines and golf channel programs. Every instructor wannabe talks about tempo.

Definition - What actually is tempo?

But more importantly, Purpose/Function - Why is tempo important? What does it do?

Which raises other interesting questions:
Is there a 'right' tempo and a 'wrong' tempo?
What is the optimum tempo, and how do we get it?

Not so simple...

To find the answers on how to achieve maximum ballspeed, we need to look beyond Golf Digest, Golf Channel, coaches, players, and start looking at math and physics, and... I hate to use this because it's overused by some flavour-of-the-day coach, geometry.

The science of it extends beyond a single bodypart, or a list.

Now, to be clear, I am not claiming I know 'the answer to ALL questions'. But with my rudimentary understanding of some of the science, I have moved from hitting regular to stiff to x-stiff shaft, and my drives are the longest they have ever been. With the same driver through out. And despite losing weight, from 92 to 91kg. To be optimum, I should gain weight actually.

The search is fun. You've made a good start. But there is a lot more depth to be plumbed. And more interesting insights await you.

Lee,

Ball Speed is the By-Product (result) of all the elements that I mentioned earlier. Without the said elements, one would not get optimum ball speed (and also spin + launch angle), so to speak.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying Rickie does not have smooth tempo. I was actually saying the smooth tempo aspect cannot be illustrated clearly in the video as it is in slow motion. Rickie's fast tempo swing does not mean that it ain't smooth.

I just wanna reinforce that hip turning speed is one of the important elements in generating speed but it is useless if one turn too fast and not able to flush the sweetspot against the ball.

Cheers,
Turbo

This is indeed a very interesting and educating post. Golf in itself is indeed technical, with so much to consider even before you hit your shot.

Thanks guys for the lessons.