Blade or cavity? To forge or not to forge?

pocketace wrote:

heard you played well during Lou Hei game... no wonder you are contented lah.... heheheh

I went back to the basics. Focused on target, kept body still, found rhythm and kept calm.

Actually, I was so scared that Capt. Kian and Vice-Capt. Emeritus Mloy would kill me if I didn't deliver.

Why are we stuck with OR, when we can have AND?

so I use blade for short irons, cavity for mid and hybrid for long lor

Technospaz wrote:

For the first time in a long while, I was contented with what I had.

Wanna take a bet if you can keep the current bag the same for the next year?

eiji wrote:

Technospaz wrote:

For the first time in a long while, I was contented with what I had.

Wanna take a bet if you can keep the current bag the same for the next year?

Nah... I'm contented, not stupid.

hkhamateur wrote:

Just played 'The Legends' this morn.
Shortest par 5 - white tee 439m blue tee 465m.
Can't think of any course hve par 5 below 400m.

Try Daiman 18 hole 2. Should be a little bit more than 400m

But to on in 2 is not easy as the green is very small and O B behind green .

Regular golfers there usually lay up on second shot and approach with a wedge. The risks are not worth the rewards. Unless you are able to drive over 300m and then approach with wedge on your second shot

On clubs in general and irons in particular


blade vs cavity - endless debate

forged vs non-forged - most generally agree that forged feel better, can be adjusted and are worth the premium

fitted vs off the rack - fitted clubs definitely better but must also consider state of current swing

advice from qualified professional (i.e. club fitter) vs other enthusiast online - You decide

Denmeister wrote:

hkhamateur wrote:

Just played 'The Legends' this morn.
Shortest par 5 - white tee 439m blue tee 465m.
Can't think of any course hve par 5 below 400m.

Try Daiman 18 hole 2. Should be a little bit more than 400m

But to on in 2 is not easy as the green is very small and O B behind green .

Regular golfers there usually lay up on second shot and approach with a wedge. The risks are not worth the rewards. Unless you are able to drive over 300m and then approach with wedge on your second shot

Tx bro.
Might b playg Daiman this Sun morn tee off as Kakis invited liao. Wil see this shirt par 5 then.

To senior bros, newbie bros and all in-between bros, your advice hugely appreciated. Was at the range last night. Hit 275 balls. Blisters all over but...
1) Forged shiok as hell. Nice flight and distance.
2) MX 300 still shiok but distance suffered
3) Blade - whoa. Distance, feel and X factor
I believe X factor influenced by three things:
a) weight - the shaft is lighter than 95. Feels like 85. Head weight also appreared lighter
b) shaft length. I'm 1.8 so 38 inch for 7 iron seems better than my own 36.5 inch.
c) feel. This one sure fight. Starngely, knowing that I had to hit the sweet spot, I found I swung slower and focused more on hitting THAT spot.
Conclusion - Book more lessons. Examine head. Be nice to wife. Go get fitted.
Thanks bros.

hkhamateur wrote:

Denmeister wrote:

hkhamateur wrote:

Just played 'The Legends' this morn.
Shortest par 5 - white tee 439m blue tee 465m.
Can't think of any course hve par 5 below 400m.

Try Daiman 18 hole 2. Should be a little bit more than 400m

But to on in 2 is not easy as the green is very small and O B behind green .

Regular golfers there usually lay up on second shot and approach with a wedge. The risks are not worth the rewards. Unless you are able to drive over 300m and then approach with wedge on your second shot

Tx bro.
Might b playg Daiman this Sun morn tee off as Kakis invited liao. Wil see this shirt par 5 then.

You are very welcome. Do let us know how the course condition is now. It has also been a long time since I played there

buzz1211 wrote:

To senior bros, newbie bros and all in-between bros, your advice hugely appreciated. Was at the range last night. Hit 275 balls. Blisters all over but...
1) Forged shiok as hell. Nice flight and distance.
2) MX 300 still shiok but distance suffered
3) Blade - whoa. Distance, feel and X factor
I believe X factor influenced by three things:
a) weight - the shaft is lighter than 95. Feels like 85. Head weight also appreared lighter
b) shaft length. I'm 1.8 so 38 inch for 7 iron seems better than my own 36.5 inch.
c) feel. This one sure fight. Starngely, knowing that I had to hit the sweet spot, I found I swung slower and focused more on hitting THAT spot.
Conclusion - Book more lessons. Examine head. Be nice to wife. Go get fitted.
Thanks bros.

So in summary,

forged shiok
mx200 still shiok
blade whoa

Whoa is a good way to described that penultimate feeling of flushing a blade shot. Sounds like someone's been smitten.

If you just want to score, no need to go blades. I know someone who can only hit it straight and he shot 1 over par, albeit on a course with minimal doglegs and playing there 300 days in a year. But he loses his temper when his tee shot lands on the fairway, but on the 'wrong side' with trees blocking his approach. I wondered why, until I figured it out.

He plays a bag half filled with CB and half filled with hybrids and hits them all razor straight, so no disrespect. But with all that technology designed to make one hit high and straight, it was hard for him to bend the ball on purpose with any precision. He'd be 'fighting' the lowered CG, the extra perimeter weighting, etc.

But imagine being able to cut fade a 5 iron from the right rough (after flubbing your tee shot) curling the ball around the tall trees blocking you to get on for a 2-putt par. Then watch your flightmates as they mouth "Whoa!" silently.

My blades demand commitment. A sloppy swing just won't cut it. But it also gets me to put in the practice and perform at a higher level. And when I do, it rewards me with plenty of "Whoa!" moments.

Took a while, but my scores are finally beginning to drop as well. Don't get me wrong, scores are important, and I am working hard to lower mine. But I have a feeling that in my twilight years, in the dusty corridors of my mind where the scores have long faded from memory, the highlight whoa moments will still shine brightly.

Enjoy.

One other thing I've realized is that choking down slightly on the club gives me better accuracy to hit the ball. As a result, it actually produces a sweeter hit and a better shot.

So, it's not really the length which counts and having a shaft which is too long (while supposed to give you better distance) can be counter-productive.

the game of golf will undergo a whole load of changes because the basis of how the swing works - better understanding of biomechanics, neuro science, motor skills and other factors are bringing validation that the current position of the golf industry is not necessary in the right place.

already i have read papers, thesis and well research papers to support this notion.

in the near future, club fitting could be determined by a 3D biomechanics which may include how one's pelvis movement, shoulder rotation, weight distribution, centrifugal force will determine what sort of weight, flex, length, loft, etc will work. Believe me the furthest thing away from the truth will be the swing weight.

i know its a bit chim to understand by if you care to drop by the Den i have a 241 pages thesis on The Effect of Differing Shaft Dynamics on the Biomechanics of the Golf Swing that will change the way you understand and see solutions in golf equipment. thats why counter weight work for some but not for others, the same with harmonics in a golf shaft and why some with a lower swing speed can handle an X while others cannot.

but it will be good as the advance learning centers in the US are already putting biomechanics ahead of training as they can determine what works best for some even before they learn how to make a swing.

DGman

so chim, i just swing hard look up pray hard!

DGman wrote:

the game of golf will undergo a whole load of changes because the basis of how the swing works - better understanding of biomechanics, neuro science, motor skills and other factors are bringing validation that the current position of the golf industry is not necessary in the right place.

already i have read papers, thesis and well research papers to support this notion.

in the near future, club fitting could be determined by a 3D biomechanics which may include how one's pelvis movement, shoulder rotation, weight distribution, centrifugal force will determine what sort of weight, flex, length, loft, etc will work. Believe me the furthest thing away from the truth will be the swing weight.

i know its a bit chim to understand by if you care to drop by the Den i have a 241 pages thesis on The Effect of Differing Shaft Dynamics on the Biomechanics of the Golf Swing that will change the way you understand and see solutions in golf equipment. thats why counter weight work for some but not for others, the same with harmonics in a golf shaft and why some with a lower swing speed can handle an X while others cannot.

but it will be good as the advance learning centers in the US are already putting biomechanics ahead of training as they can determine what works best for some even before they learn how to make a swing.

DGman

wa boss got 秘笈!! give me a copy so i can learn club fitting and set up a biz too! hehe....

This is indeed very interesting!
Thanks for sharing, Eric!

Please keep us posted of any progress you might have...

eiji wrote:

so chim, i just swing hard look up pray hard!

My problem is that I look up while I swing... then surely, my pray very hard.

DGman wrote:

the game of golf will undergo a whole load of changes because the basis of how the swing works - better understanding of biomechanics, neuro science, motor skills and other factors are bringing validation that the current position of the golf industry is not necessary in the right place.

already i have read papers, thesis and well research papers to support this notion.

in the near future, club fitting could be determined by a 3D biomechanics which may include how one's pelvis movement, shoulder rotation, weight distribution, centrifugal force will determine what sort of weight, flex, length, loft, etc will work. Believe me the furthest thing away from the truth will be the swing weight.

i know its a bit chim to understand by if you care to drop by the Den i have a 241 pages thesis on The Effect of Differing Shaft Dynamics on the Biomechanics of the Golf Swing that will change the way you understand and see solutions in golf equipment. thats why counter weight work for some but not for others, the same with harmonics in a golf shaft and why some with a lower swing speed can handle an X while others cannot.

but it will be good as the advance learning centers in the US are already putting biomechanics ahead of training as they can determine what works best for some even before they learn how to make a swing.

DGman

for others as dedicated as Eric to the science and art of club fitting ... the article can also be found online

http://researchrepository.napier.ac.uk/3743/1/Nils_Betzler_PhD_Thesis_Golf_Shaft.pdf

just to give you guys a bit of understanding about how every one has a different biomechanis.

stand balance on 2 feet, look straight ahead. now stand on one leg (any one), close your eyes and count from one to ten. some will last the full 10 seconds others may lose their balance after just a couple of seconds. now do the same thing but stand on the other leg. you will also find that you get better balance on one but unlikely to be equal. this has an important factor of where you want to lean at the back swing and how you should finished in the swing. your balance got to do with how your lower core reacts.

for golfers who are keen footballers or even badminton or squash players, they will develop better balance and stronger lower core. so even if they swing at the same speed as someone with a weaker lower core, the former will most likely be able to hit further with a great degree of consistency. of course with proper coaching, self discovery, training and proper fitting, the advantage will change, but if both start learning golf at same time using the proper technique that works for the biomechanics of the golfer, the former will have an advantage.

not many device out there that offers pull or push weight but if you swing one hand (right then left) and be able to capture the speed of your golf club, you will find it will be different. this will show if you have a natural a pull or push centrifugal force. Ernie Els has the uncanny ability to hold his right hand cock till the 7 o'clock position in the down swing before releasing his club. its a whip that can only be seen on high speed camera.

will be happy to discuss this at the Den but it will be a while before i can discuss them further in open forum because of NDA clauses.

have a great week end.

DGman

great work Derek...

we have a Norwegian customer who came in one day looking for a set of clubs for his 9 year old. he was very specific about the specs and ask how we proposed to built the set the clubs for his son. as the clubs were short (9 year old), swing weight was irrelevant. we gave him our process, choice of BFG club heads (as we have the same head in 2 different weights), shaft weight, grip weight and even the proposed ferrule and its weight and explained how we will have this assembled. he immediately placed his order.

some months later he send me his credentials and he turns out to have patented a bio matched fitting solution and the clubs are moi matched to the bio mechanics of the golfer. he have also asked to be the representative of BFG irons in Scandinavia. i am not excited about that prospect but more of the fact that someone wtih a lot of engineering background and learning has found the time and a method to do something revolutionary...also it looks like the 3 years R&D designing the irons and get the shape and weight right is paying off.

commercial break...how the MOI clubs were assembled.

from more than 30 shafts, we picked 12 and finally narrowed down to 6 pcs. weight and flex was the key factor and unknown to many golfers, parallel tip is the best way to build MOI matched clubs. it delivers better frequency control and weight choices.



from 3 sets of BFG irons we found a set of 5 to PW which was 7 grams (closest) apart in weight. these heads are 10 grammes lighter than the standard weight of irons. (standard 7 iron is 270 g, BFG irons comes in 260 or 270g)



every grip and even ferrules were weighted to ensure we built the clubs to the desired MOI.



PW grip weight



5 iron grip weight



the result is building a set of club that makes my day. if you swing a set of clubs that feels the same from 5 iron to PW, regardless of SW, thats MOI matched and balance. hence thats why combo heads seldom work.

so sometimes when customer ask me why we are not the cheapest, its makes me want to stop trying so hard. but we also know that we will always be ahead of OEM clubs which are factory assembled.

DGman

Hi Eric,

I have my current set MOI Matched and love the way they perform in that they feel similar as I wld swing my PW and 5-iron. The one part I find myself this burning question for u is that why wld swing weight be an immaterial element? Applying the laws of physics, overall weight of each club will very much be gradually ascending as we move from the longer irons to the shorter ones I.e. 5-i vis-a-vis PW. Coupled with the fact that the industry norms is that clubheads are also built to increasing weights when forged or cast. I believe what this does is to inevitably render a situation of varying swing weights throughout the set (I stand corrected)?

More so, if by convention that the shaft lengths go by the .5 inch (assuming so) incrementals, would that not also be a huge contributing factor in rendering a likely situation of an inconsistent swing weight distribution throughout the set in an erratic fashion?

Given the norms where a golfer usually plays with a D4 to possibly D9 in their wedges, C9 to D2 in their irons (referring to OEMs) wouldn't attention to incremental swing weights placement spaced from the biomechanics perspective from the longer to shorter irons be reaping the ideal results?

Having said the above, I think this is just about the tip of the iceberg as there many other factors/variables involved. Would appreciate if u could help me have a deeper understanding on this huge topic.

Hi Eric,

Met you at the Zen Den (as opposed to the Sin Bin where my wife banishes me). Thanks for the advice. Lee36828, thanks so much for your encouragement. This weekend is crunch time and I will make a decision. No running away from the fact that fitting works. Lee, love your description of shaping that shot. Every time I slice, I claim I meant to hit a fade. Think shaping shots is still beyond me.

Hope the Wesley Snipes samurai vampire movie doesn't influece me - Blade lah.

Hi buzz1211,

do whatever it takes to make you want to improve and bring your game to the next level. i remembered you have very clear objective in your game which is about achieving a certain handicap in your current game.

at the end of the day what you want is the confidence to make a better shot when you stand over your equipment of choice.

have fun and to good scoring.

DGman

Eric!

After you mentioned, I tried the balancing thing first myself, than with my wife.

Both of us can balance for 18s and longer with on the right but only 5 s on the left....

What does that mean ah?? Slicing tendency explained??

DGman wrote:

just to give you guys a bit of understanding about how every one has a different biomechanis.

stand balance on 2 feet, look straight ahead. now stand on one leg (any one), close your eyes and count from one to ten. some will last the full 10 seconds others may lose their balance after just a couple of seconds. now do the same thing but stand on the other leg. you will also find that you get better balance on one but unlikely to be equal. this has an important factor of where you want to lean at the back swing and how you should finished in the swing. your balance got to do with how your lower core reacts.

for golfers who are keen footballers or even badminton or squash players, they will develop better balance and stronger lower core. so even if they swing at the same speed as someone with a weaker lower core, the former will most likely be able to hit further with a great degree of consistency. of course with proper coaching, self discovery, training and proper fitting, the advantage will change, but if both start learning golf at same time using the proper technique that works for the biomechanics of the golfer, the former will have an advantage.

not many device out there that offers pull or push weight but if you swing one hand (right then left) and be able to capture the speed of your golf club, you will find it will be different. this will show if you have a natural a pull or push centrifugal force. Ernie Els has the uncanny ability to hold his right hand cock till the 7 o'clock position in the down swing before releasing his club. its a whip that can only be seen on high speed camera.

will be happy to discuss this at the Den but it will be a while before i can discuss them further in open forum because of NDA clauses.

have a great week end.

DGman