Opinions - fitting for golf equipment

i know i am starting this thread again and hope it will turn out into a meaningful thread


a few days ago i was shopping around and i happened to walk into a golf retail shop

there was a fitting area and a indoor hitting area also. Attracted by the sound of ball striking, i walked over curiously and stood down there and observe

It became evident to me that the customer was trying out to fit irons and woods of a particular brand

After about 20 swings, he kept telling the fitter that he is struggling to contact the ball and that the ball doesn't take off. 

the fitter was very patient and with an assuring tone, kept asking him to try a few more shots

Again he tried a few more shots and made some comments to the fitter again. At this point in time, the sales staff, who was also observing by the side, bluntly remarked to the customer that he is "falling back" on his top swing and proceeded to give him some tips verbally

Now by saying that, i will assume that the sales staff will be a decent golfer with certain knowledge to be able to comment like that

My feel is this :

When the fitter didn't say anything yet, will it be appropriate for the sales staff to make remarks of such nature to the customer? after all, the customer was not looking for swing tips. he was looking to fit new equipment

The customer, like many of us here (myself inclusive), who doesn't have a consistent or perfect swing, will he really benefit from fitting some equipment in this scenario? Or will he just get more confusion on his swing?

we always ask our customer what do you want to find out today?

its an open end question, some wants to buy a shaft and do not want advice, some wants to optimise their equipment and some wants to optimise their swing. whatever the reason, its best that we keep to the brief. not trying to be a smart alex, but golfers have the biggest ego and my job is to massage that along with finding if change of equipment really helps. if it does, i will not hestitate to tell the golfer so, if not, the golfer will be duly informed.

i had a customer who have visited me 3 times in the last year and he works in Beijing. his score is pretty good but he has his on days and off days. very technical sort of chap who will not hesitate to buy a trackman for his own use. dedicated to the core. but his "swing" can be better. i did not fit him and i got him to go read up on D-plane. 3 months from his last visit, he made an appointment and my, his swing have improved leaps and bounds. this time round, i loan him a driver to try it out and i am looking forward to feedback. he will eventually be fitted but its got to be done correctly cos he has the potential but needs the time to make the necessary changes. 

if i have sold him a shaft on his first visit, he would never have progressed. 

Got the point?

DGman

DGman wrote:

we always ask our customer what do you want to find out today?

its an open end question, some wants to buy a shaft and do not want advice, some wants to optimise their equipment and some wants to optimise their swing. whatever the reason, its best that we keep to the brief. not trying to be a smart alex, but golfers have the biggest ego and my job is to massage that along with finding if change of equipment really helps. if it does, i will not hestitate to tell the golfer so, if not, the golfer will be duly informed.

i had a customer who have visited me 3 times in the last year and he works in Beijing. his score is pretty good but he has his on days and off days. very technical sort of chap who will not hesitate to buy a trackman for his own use. dedicated to the core. but his "swing" can be better. i did not fit him and i got him to go read up on D-plane. 3 months from his last visit, he made an appointment and my, his swing have improved leaps and bounds. this time round, i loan him a driver to try it out and i am looking forward to feedback. he will eventually be fitted but its got to be done correctly cos he has the potential but needs the time to make the necessary changes. 

if i have sold him a shaft on his first visit, he would never have progressed. 

Got the point?

DGman

The point is need to read up on D-plane first ah?

Point is no purchase for first visit lah.

asahi wrote:

Point is no purchase for first visit lah.

Orhhh.. still waiting for you to teach me D-Plane:albino:

That customer happens to be very stubborn but very learned...so in the end it helps him tremendously as he previous had other notions about the golf swing. 

you SS is of course more qualified than most of us here having read, understood and master "The Golfing Machine" at the tender young age.

Homer Kelley is now acknowledge as the father of the D-plane theory.

hope it helps...but please do not misinterpret the book. use it for ball flight rules.

DGman

asahi wrote:

Point is no purchase for first visit lah.

Sh*t ....no wonder I never improve....

willie24 wrote:

asahi wrote:

Point is no purchase for first visit lah.

Sh*t ....no wonder I never improve....

ok lah.....then u can go second and third visit mah.

enwee wrote:

willie24 wrote:

asahi wrote:

Point is no purchase for first visit lah.

Sh*t ....no wonder I never improve....

ok lah.....then u can go second and third visit mah.

Already.....must stop buying and start learning:P

DGman wrote:

we always ask our customer what do you want to find out today?

its an open end question, some wants to buy a shaft and do not want advice, some wants to optimise their equipment and some wants to optimise their swing. whatever the reason, its best that we keep to the brief. not trying to be a smart alex, but golfers have the biggest ego and my job is to massage that along with finding if change of equipment really helps. if it does, i will not hestitate to tell the golfer so, if not, the golfer will be duly informed.

i had a customer who have visited me 3 times in the last year and he works in Beijing. his score is pretty good but he has his on days and off days. very technical sort of chap who will not hesitate to buy a trackman for his own use. dedicated to the core. but his "swing" can be better. i did not fit him and i got him to go read up on D-plane. 3 months from his last visit, he made an appointment and my, his swing have improved leaps and bounds. this time round, i loan him a driver to try it out and i am looking forward to feedback. he will eventually be fitted but its got to be done correctly cos he has the potential but needs the time to make the necessary changes. 

if i have sold him a shaft on his first visit, he would never have progressed. 

Got the point?

DGman

Always impressed with your professionalism....

 willie24 wrote:

enwee wrote:

willie24 wrote:

asahi wrote:

Point is no purchase for first visit lah.

Sh*t ....no wonder I never improve....

ok lah.....then u can go second and third visit mah.

Already.....must stop buying and start learning:P

Ask u go few more times is meet up with the pros there. Get a tips or two lah. But of cos if your backside itchy then cannot help.

So the general rule of thumb is buy off the rack, go for lessons and when your swing is more consistent, then go be fitted?
But then, if the off the rack really does not fit you, wouldn't we be ingraining compensation in our swing right from the start??
Perhaps that is why PING is so successful. They offer initial sort-of fitting based more on your physique, rather than your swing.

this thread might help...read it from the beginning...

What is Club Fitting

Golfers new or experienced should be analysed but fitting may not be necessary. the first level of opinion should come from their coaches and not friends who are trying to unload their used clubs.

Thats how i got started...a friend passed me his used clubs and asked me to pay him $1k back in the 90s and i did. only much later did i realised the driver was 48 inch and the irons were blade... 

DGman

1.
I'm a huge advocate of spending more money on the coach, than on equipment.. Although this can't be helped sometimes cos a shaft can cost $1k a piece whereas that means having 15 coaching lessons, and I gathered not many are doing it over the last 6 months?? 

When was the last time we went to our coaches? But we seem to be buying and changing equipment more often than our wives buying their Pradas...

2.
And I feel the coaches should have a great influence on how the golfers should be fitted..

To the fitters here in the forum, please share with us, whether there are many coaches/pros who would bring their students in for fitting, together if at all...? Do you think it is necessary or not necessary for the coaches to be there?

3.
Also, to the Pros here, whether you agree with fitters giving swing coaching during fitting..  I am not disagreeing with this, cos one fitter was very honest to tell me the first time we met that I had inconsistent swings (although I was rolling my eyes, if I didn't I would be playing at PGA right??) and Sebastian actually gave me some good swing tips before..

I agree that fitters do give great tips at times, but how the Pros feel about this..

4.
Lastly, how do we tell, whether we have optimized whatever spending we can on our golf equipment, to the point of diminishing returns...? If I can hit a drive 230m using a $300 driver, would I and could I get 250m if I spend $1k on another driver? 


I know these questions would open up great amount of discussions, so let's be honest and cordial to benefit everybody here..

DGman boss, that write-up is a good one. Got me thinking hard abt my game. Just to check, how do I arrange to get my swing n equipment analyzed at yr fitting centre?

acedil wrote:

DGman boss, that write-up is a good one. Got me thinking hard abt my game. Just to check, how do I arrange to get my swing n equipment analyzed at yr fitting centre?

go to bfg website lor...I believe there's something there to make appt.

the common platform that i feel both coaches and fitters can work at is via a common ground. The Trackman is one such tool. we always consult the coaches if they refer their students to us and normally we prefer to do just one club so that the coaches can look at what we think his/her student should be fitted.

a lot of times, golfers think that we are dishing our lessons but we are not. we are just helping golfers understand the importance of good posture and the difference between a swing and otherwise. the swing is a lot more complicated than just good posture and a few simple drills and that is really the job of the coach, just like fitting is the job of the fitter. just like both professions, there are good coaches and there are bad fitters...we are learning everyday ourselves.

acedil, please visit our website to make an appointment...

Swing Analysis Booking

Many thanks....DGman

enwee wrote:

 willie24 wrote:

enwee wrote:

willie24 wrote:

asahi wrote:

Point is no purchase for first visit lah.

Sh*t ....no wonder I never improve....

ok lah.....then u can go second and third visit mah.

Already.....must stop buying and start learning:P

Ask u go few more times is meet up with the pros there. Get a tips or two lah. But of cos if your backside itchy then cannot help.

Lol...must agree everytime itchy backside...

andrew-golf wrote:

i know i am starting this thread again and hope it will turn out into a meaningful thread


a few days ago i was shopping around and i happened to walk into a golf retail shop

there was a fitting area and a indoor hitting area also. Attracted by the sound of ball striking, i walked over curiously and stood down there and observe

It became evident to me that the customer was trying out to fit irons and woods of a particular brand

After about 20 swings, he kept telling the fitter that he is struggling to contact the ball and that the ball doesn't take off. 

the fitter was very patient and with an assuring tone, kept asking him to try a few more shots

Again he tried a few more shots and made some comments to the fitter again. At this point in time, the sales staff, who was also observing by the side, bluntly remarked to the customer that he is "falling back" on his top swing and proceeded to give him some tips verbally

Now by saying that, i will assume that the sales staff will be a decent golfer with certain knowledge to be able to comment like that

My feel is this :

When the fitter didn't say anything yet, will it be appropriate for the sales staff to make remarks of such nature to the customer? after all, the customer was not looking for swing tips. he was looking to fit new equipment

The customer, like many of us here (myself inclusive), who doesn't have a consistent or perfect swing, will he really benefit from fitting some equipment in this scenario? Or will he just get more confusion on his swing?

hi bro, your swing should be alright. Saw you practise at the range recently and your impact is quite consistently and good...

chien wrote:

1.
I'm a huge advocate of spending more money on the coach, than on equipment.. Although this can't be helped sometimes cos a shaft can cost $1k a piece whereas that means having 15 coaching lessons, and I gathered not many are doing it over the last 6 months??

When was the last time we went to our coaches? But we seem to be buying and changing equipment more often than our wives buying their Pradas...

2.
And I feel the coaches should have a great influence on how the golfers should be fitted..

To the fitters here in the forum, please share with us, whether there are many coaches/pros who would bring their students in for fitting, together if at all...? Do you think it is necessary or not necessary for the coaches to be there?

3.
Also, to the Pros here, whether you agree with fitters giving swing coaching during fitting..  I am not disagreeing with this, cos one fitter was very honest to tell me the first time we met that I had inconsistent swings (although I was rolling my eyes, if I didn't I would be playing at PGA right??) and Sebastian actually gave me some good swing tips before..

I agree that fitters do give great tips at times, but how the Pros feel about this..

4.
Lastly, how do we tell, whether we have optimized whatever spending we can on our golf equipment, to the point of diminishing returns...? If I can hit a drive 230m using a $300 driver, would I and could I get 250m if I spend $1k on another driver?


I know these questions would open up great amount of discussions, so let's be honest and cordial to benefit everybody here..

To answer Chien's questions...  

If you ask an honest question, I will give you an honest answer. I know I will regret it..

Question 1) I cannot answer.
Question 2) Also not for me.
Question 3) No, hitting the golf ball nicely is a process. It involves good coaching, good fitting and positive practice...  not necessarily in that order.

I cannot speak for all coaches, but if I send a student for fitting, I have a good reason for doing so, off the shelf does not suit every one.

Most good Pro's are fitters themselves, more than capable, we do not all have access to Trackman/Flight scope and Workshops etc, and to be honest during Trainee days we got dirty enough that not many want to keep doing it, but I can bet you all all of us that care try to keep up with all the changes in technology and training principles, therefore we know what we want for our student to improve, and we know what we have been working on to get that student to the next level.

It is extremely frustrating to send a student in for a fitting, and we have been working for ages "for example" on a huge shoulder tilt to the right at address that causes him/her to hit fat.

So we work on making tilt neutral or even "positive" to feel changes...

Then he/she is told by shop staff you are not tilting shoulders enough....

That gets them hitting up on ball, good for stats but does not address casting/fat issues....

And then they come back angry and confused....

This is just an example....

But most Good Pro's send students to make sure basics are correct, grip size and shaft flex.

Personally first fitting I do not care even about Lie angle.

There are 3 student types, Beginner, Fast fix and Improver.

Beginner, unless they are really not able to fit into the "Standard mold" they need fitting.

Fast Fix is just that, fit me do what ever just cure that slice!

Improver, I love....  "get me shooting lower"..  these ones, we have some lessons, discussion, set a plan, then we go to a fitter and check basics..

This will sound strange and this is where I will lose you, but I do not care where the ball goes.... to a certain extent.

If the shaft flex is correct, and the grip size is correct and the ball impact is good and always goes one direction or another, I will long ago have determined the cause of that... lesson 1 likely.

Direction is easy to fix, impact takes longer....

Then we build swing, we do drills, many many drills.

The impact improves, the distance improves, the short game always improves... then if absolutely necessary adjust or buy new clubs. (Fitted 100%).

I personally use BFG, they have been good to me, and I usually try to go to student fittings with the student.

My students do not always use BFG, they are free to go to their favorites.

The equipment is great, I have been offered OEM club deals many times recently but I like their product.

I do not earn $$ from my student if I go to the fitter, and the Fitter pays me not one cent...  the idea is if my student succeeds that is advertisement enough. 

On the other hand a fitter once told my student I was ripping him off....  I had never met the guy... 

Question 4) Absolutely not!  But with the technology and help available today you can now try all these drivers with your same swing and get a huge output of information that tells you which one performs better.

KJ Choi once lost his luggage bought an off the rack set of clubs and won $56 000 in an event.. but he tried 5 sets with a Launch Monitor before he selected that set....

Not sure if this helps anyone, but you did ask! 

Hi Pro. 

Many thanks for sharing,  especially with your honest reply and detailed explanation. .

Great to hear from a good Pro like yourself. .

Actually I was thinking, most of us here don't play or practice enough here like the pros on the touring circuit. How do we get a more consistent swing?

enwee wrote:

Actually I was thinking, most of us here don't play or practice enough here like the pros on the touring circuit. How do we get a more consistent swing?

There are drills u can do at home or in hotels while u travel to keep ur golf swing in tune. U do not need clubs.

shorthitter wrote:

enwee wrote:

Actually I was thinking, most of us here don't play or practice enough here like the pros on the touring circuit. How do we get a more consistent swing?

There are drills u can do at home or in hotels while u travel to keep ur golf swing in tune. U do not need clubs.

This is interesting discussion, we, maybe its just me, often have a nice swing without the ball, and with the ball i tend to wanna hit it and end up having swing thats not so effective in its impact. With such problems can i still go for fitting? How shud i gage myself 'fit' to be going to one?

Cnng121 wrote:

shorthitter wrote:

enwee wrote:

Actually I was thinking, most of us here don't play or practice enough here like the pros on the touring circuit. How do we get a more consistent swing?

There are drills u can do at home or in hotels while u travel to keep ur golf swing in tune. U do not need clubs.

This is interesting discussion, we, maybe its just me, often have a nice swing without the ball, and with the ball i tend to wanna hit it and end up having swing thats not so effective in its impact. With such problems can i still go for fitting? How shud i gage myself 'fit' to be going to one?

Had this problem when I was learning (actually still in learning stage), once my intent is to hit the white ball on the ground, 95% will turn out to be a bad shot! Once I tell myself to complete my swing towards the target and the ball is just along my swing arc which will be hit along the swing path, my ball flight become swee swee! That's why when we swing without the ball, our swing seem so much easy and better but once with a ball, we cannot repeat the practice swing. Because we want to hit the ball instead of swinging. So now I keep reminding myself to swing the ball towards the target rather than hitting at the ball.
My 2 cents.