Shaft questions - CPM vs Swing speed

I've done quite abit of reading on the net but i'm still confused.. hopefully can find some answers here.

So far this is what i've gathered - 2 main factors affect shaft fitting. First obviously is the swing speed, higher the swing speed, stiffer the shaft required. Second is the tempo, ie how quick/aggressive the golfer's transition from backswing to downswing is, when his release is, etc.

I guess we also all know that the manufacturers' rating of R S X for a shaft is not standardized across the industry, and therefore cannot really be depended on. However, what is definitely measurable is the CPM of the shaft.

Questions:

1) Do club fitters match a golfer's swing speed to a particular CPM to decide which shaft is suitable? Eg. my driver swing speed is 100mph so i should be using a shaft with 200 CPM

2) If so, how is tempo factored in? Is this even measurable?

I get the feeling that ultimately, it's up to the golfer to try many different shafts to find the one that fits him perfectly. After he has found the perfect shaft, he gets the CPM measured at different lengths (tip, middle, and butt), to find out what kinda of shaft profile is perfect for him. In the future when he wants to change his shaft, all he needs is to know the shaft's CPM and it should be a pretty close fit.

If this is the case, then it's really a matter of trial and error and there's no exact science to it. I refuse to believe that club fitters have so much training just to be able to measure CPM and not be able to provide any value-add in this area.

Looking forward to inputs from people who are more knowledgeable than me. Feel free to totally dispute what i've written above if it is inaccurate - i'm no expert, and these are just my conclusions after doing some research..

Note: In case anyone misunderstands my intentions, in no way am i trying to diss club-fitters. I know i'm definitely missing some info and not seeing the full picture, which is why i'm trying to find out more.

Yo Solarpop....

first of all...where did you get the 200 cpm for 100 mph club head speed reading

apart from that, i will let others have a chance to answer your question.

other considerations are swing tempo and your swing characteristics. all this influence our recommendations as to what weight and flex you should use.

DGman[b]

DGman:

200cpm to 100mph is anyhow pluck lah just an example.. apologies if i've confused anyone. I'm not sure of the correct figures coz i don't have access to any charts. But from what i remember offhand, is 250cpm to 100mph more accurate?

I'm glad you highlighted the consideration for shaft weight also, i was gonna bring that up after i get a clearer picture of the CPM issue first.

mmmhhh solarpop.......now that clears the air...and you are right to say that 100 mph roughly translate to 250 cpm but there are other considerations.

one..shaft weight. this is directly influence by the golfers' swing tempo, the faster the swing, the heavier the shaft is needed, but there are exemptions. the golfer himself or herself still have the final say in terms of preference. However it is highly unlikely that a hitter would prefer to have a 50 g shaft in his driver. to ensure that the golfer builds the confidence to throw his club head, certain body or mass is needed. this body is most likely to come from the shaft itself instead of head and grip weight.

therefore its right to say that the someone who have a much slower swing would prefer a lighter shaft. but it only takes care of weight of the shaft...

if we use a timer from take away to impact, a fast tempo is in the .8 to 1 second range while the slower tempo golfers will take 1.5 seconds or more. those in the middle are the average swing tempo range.

two....shaft flex...the golfers' swing characteristic is the main criteria when we determine what flex to build. why because there are golfers who take a very full swing and some who swing no more than half but finish with commitment. both may swing at 100 mph but it doesn't mean they should use the same flex. the reason is loading of the shaft. the golfer with the full swing will load early and thus require a stiffer flex say 255 while the second golfer will need a slightly more flexible shaft, maybe a 245 cpm. so effectively 10 cpm can seperate two golfers who swing at the same speed but have different swing type.

three....feel...golfers talk about feel and over the years i have found that the better the golfer, the more sensitive they are about feel. so what does feel translate to...its a golfer's preference and it helps build up their confidence. so what is feel.

from a clubmakers' perspective, the total weight of the club, the length, the swing weight, the torque of the shaft, the flex of the shaft all contribute to feel. i have guys who swing at 110 but prefers just a 250 cpm and guys who swing at 105 but prefers a 270 cpm. no right or wrong when they both end up hitting 270 metres off the tee.

of course there are more than the above 3 points but i think its information overload liao....like total weight, club balance point, shaft kickpoint, grip size, etc...they all contribute to feel. than there are factors that influence accuracy and distance.

let me know if you have any more question solarpop, otherwise we have a few sets of irons and putters that need your expert paintfill services. haha just don't touch my 009.

DGman

Thanks for the reply DGman.. very informative.

Looks like much about club fitting is about observation, experience and feel. I thought that there would be more measurements, charts and formulae involved. Thinking about it though, that wouldn't make much sense either, coz something as diverse and dynamic as the golf swing can never be technically represented with much accuracy.

I've read so many posts on another overseas forum about buying high end exotic shafts online simply based on the model and CPM. Unless they've already tried that particular model in that particular CPM range, seems like they may not get exactly what they're looking for.

If personal feel is such a big factor, i guess we can say that even the best club fitter will not be able to get it right the first time, but he will at least be able to narrow down the choices to a few highly possible ones. And thereafter the golfer must try out the newly fitted equipment for a period to make sure it suits him. Only at this point is the fitting process complete.

One more thing to consider then.. unless there are already test clubs that have been fitted with the same head, how is the average golfer ever gonna have the chance to try out a few shafts that have been shortlisted, but only paying for the one that really fits him? I'm quite sure custom fitters are not gonna fit up a brand new $600 shaft only for the customer to come back 2 weeks later and say it doesn't feel good and wants to try something else...

Comments anyone?


DGman - Will drop by soon to see how i may be of service There are also a few things i want to look at, just haven't had much free time lately. Please reserve one of your new purple putter grips for me first..

Not in Singapore dude. U get posted to PP la then go to:

TM performance labs

Callaway Performance Center

Haven't found Mizuno ones though.

actually there are lots of instruments that measures shaft profile..

like one that measures the entire shaft at interval of 7 inches. that way they can map the shaft flex and torque at those interval. the question is this would be very precise and the average golfer out there will be not able to appreciate this precision form of measurement.

simply hitting it is the best way to judge. some of these instruments are home built and the data can be presented in a chart that shows stiffness from tip to the butt.

i think its best for the accomplished golfer and not for 80% of our golfing population.

DGman

wow, seroius matter man about CPM vs Swing speed.
Not sure, ur looking for direction or distance. like to share abit on how i fitted my driver when i was in US.

1, they check my swing speed, about 98 to 103 mph.
2, my launch angle, which is about 14 degrees.
3, Ball spin rates about 3000.
4, 10 swing and 7 hit fairway.
5, Alittle bit too much draw.
6, Mid trajectory

all this using a 65g about 245cpm.

It does feels great on this swing analysis, after a few question that they ask me about my playing of golf.


i just want to change my shaft bcoz i was using the proforce for about 3 years already.
i just felt that the shaft has already furtics.

only just few things that they altered.

1. lighten my shaft weights to 60g ( Oziks Xcon6 firm )
2. A 240 cpm shaft. i wanted more feel, so a slightly less Cpm i felt more feel on impact.
3. Lenght at 44.50 bcoz i am 6 ft tall.
4. A 10.5 degrees KZG

well, everything when quite great. i was told not to worries too much about CPM.
Total weight is the major tots first, then what degress head, then lenght.

i went to Jef Goh of Golf House, he gave me nearly the same specs when i ask him for advise.

i will one day go to TorqueGolf to see a fitter name Joseph Loo.
i heard he is pretty good too.
What i heard is that this 2 guys had gone to US to train and was the Singapore Open and Masters Clubfitters.

well, thanks

DGman, u talked about the tempo being fast, medium and slow.... does the swing speed affect the tempo or is there a ratio we should keep to??

it doesnt mean that a slow tempo will result in a short distance. the appropriate ratio of the upswing compare to the downswing is 3:1.

it means that if you take a video or high speed image of pro golfers swing, there should be X3 frames taking away and X frame hitting through to impact. if they lose that tempo, it will most probably result in a bad shot like a push or pull.

the tempo do not necessary result in higher or lower clubhead speed but again club head speed is not everything. the other consideration is PTR (power transfer ratio) which is computed as a percentage of your ball speed divided by swing speed. the higher the PTR, the bigger the smash factor.

hope i answer your question, weesern.

DGman

if the ideal ratio is 3:1, assuming the start to impact is abt 1.2 sec. so the backswing should take .9 sec and downswing .3 sec to impact.

another person with the tempo of 1 sec, backswing .75 sec, downswing .25 sec.

the club head speed can be the same... then tat can be due to the acceleration of the club head.... am I right to say tat??

Rgds to smash factor, I've experience it on Dead solid simulator (hope this simulator is accurate). My club head speed is lower then my usual yet the smash is 1.4. obviously the distance shown is further... I think the simulator may not be quite accurate coz I'm only using a 7 iron although I wish its accurate... haha

joe007:

I would sacrifice distance for accuracy ANYTIME haha..

Quick question. 6' is like 1.8m, and you're fitted with a 44.5" driver? Just about every manufacturer now sells their stock drivers at 45" at least. How did the fitter (or you) decide to go shorter?

did golfamigo share on the 5' (old) guy using a 45++" driver?