OMG, that is the most ridicules article I have ever read. There are so many holes in that analysis that I dont know where to start. They have obviously failed to show the really really bad images. For Butch to say she maintains her spine angle seriously makes we think he is blind and can not see what is going on. Her spine angle changes constantly in the swing from both the front and the back
To say she has perfect impact also is ridiculous.
Doesnt look so perfect to me
And what has one extra vertebrae got to do with her arms, legs and wrists. Her "no Hinge" takeaway is because of her wrists and arms being set up poorly. This looks like a hinge to me but it says no wrist hinge
I am horrified to think that Golf Digest could print such nonsense.
Last edited by Right_sided_coach on Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
JonL_TK Incredibly Active Golfer
Posts : 2668 Join date : 2009-12-23 Age : 43 Location : Pasir Gudang / Singapore
anyways, never liked Natalie. I dont think she's pretty at all..she tries so hard to dress the part but the base is not there lor. Just like Kournikova...body/face cant make it lah
compare to grace park, she doesnt dress sexy, but that pouty lips and her curvy bod is enough to stirr hahahaha, and beautiful swing to boot!
WTF... u prefer Grace Park over Anna Kournikova...
My take on Butch is he is hesitant to change players that are having success for fear of making them play worse. Dustin Johnson bowed wrist is another example.
Butch's greatest success came when Tiger insisted he change his swing. We all know how great a partnership that was.
Ok the first point. Would you change Dustin Johnsons swing, specifically his bowed wrist? Would you have changed Freddies swing, it appears that his back problems are a result of it?
Dustin Johnson seems to be doing pretty well for himself, and aside from the debocle at the PGA and a shaky start to a Sunday round he should have won two majors last year. He finsihed T8, T14, T5 in theee of the majors in 2010. I would also argue that he is getting better under Butch.
His GIR ranking 2009: 80, 2010: 70, thus far in 2011: 20. He started working with Butch a year ago. He also has a T9, T3, and 2 thus far this year.
As far as the success with Tiger and "Tiger's" apparent insistance to change and Butch's reluctance to do so...here is an article that somewhat refutes that assumption:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/paul_kimmage/article5684048.ece Exerpt from article... “He (Norman) was struggling [with his game] and asked Elk about me. We started working together, he wins the Open Championship in 1993 and I get a call from Earl Woods, asking if he could bring Tiger over. I’d never seen him hit a shot, other than on television, but he came over and we had some lunch and went out to the range.
“I still have the film in my computer at the golf school - he was hitting it miles, just bombing it to the end of the range. I gave him some ideas and a couple of weeks later, Earl called me up on the phone and asked if I would work with them. I said, ‘Earl, I’ll do this on two counts [conditions]. This isn’t going to work if I tell him to do stuff and you tell him to do something else. And the second thing is . . . I know you don’t have any money so I’m not going to charge you, but when he turns pro I’m going to give you a bill’. And when he turned pro I gave him a very hefty bill.”
Seems that Butch was willing to make some changes...at least according to what was said there. Butch has stated..."You never take away from what someone does naturally. You try to make it better." I agree. I think that what Dustin Johnson does is a natural motion, all be it unorthodox. He is arguablly the most physically gifted player on the PGA tour. I too would be hesitant to change that...maybe there is something else that needs to be improved, such as work ethic.
If you are speaking strictly from an injury standpoint, then I might agree. But to be honest I am not sure if that position is causing any undue stress on his wrist (it should), due to lack of proof there is any. Some people are just freaks of nature and can do things other people cannot.
If he does injure it and it is a result of that, then maybe he should think about changing it.
I would definitely change Dustins wrists as the club is so closed that he has to hang on and go under with his body at impact. He's young now but I can see him having injury problems later in his career. I also believe he would have won a couple majors last year if it wasn't for the shut club. Under pressure he's gonna get a lot of lefts and the blocks as well.
I am of the belief that if you change the correct part of the swing and also the matching move on the follow through, it should make them better not worse. Who's to say what more Freddy could have done as well as Furyk, Gulbis, etc. Freddy and Furyk I believe should have won more majors than they have
I like TW's approach of taking a step back to then go forward. Golf careers can last till a player reaches his 60's. Keeping the body healthy is important.
Norman is another with major injury problems. Hogan had to change his because his body got banged up in a car crash. Best ball striker ever.
Good points raised Dan.
I have seen interviews were Tiger talks about having to change his swing after the 97 Masters as it was not consistent. Maybe it was Earl who was reluctant...not sure.
Either way he has won 14 majors and is stilling looking to improve technique.
DRGjr72 Senior Golfer
Posts : 486 Join date : 2011-02-14 Age : 51 Location : Singapore
I agree that it is his athletic ability..but also the shut face position then nice shaft lean allows him to have that "awkward" positon and still perform. He also keeps his right wrist bent and has a flat left wrist well after his impact. Holding these angles allows him to swing the way that he does. It seems to work for him and maybe there are some tweaks that could be made. But if it was up to me I would work on areas that are causing issues in his game.
For any golfer playing injury free is important. When you are injured you cannot play. But when I was playing professionally, making a swing change that was better for my game would have been a bigger concern than an injury when I was 40, 50, or 60. To be hones I am expecting to fall apart then from all my hockey related injuries anyhow...
I also agree that there are keys that if you unlock them certain doors or sequences can follow. But there are also other doors that can open, sometimes those doors represent undesired consequences that then need to be worked through.
Will not argue with you about Hogan. I would throw Mac and Moe in the ring..although they could not do it on the same stage that Hogan did. But there is something about watching each one of those guys swing that is special.
I also agree that Tiger is an amazing example of someone who has a inner drive to continue to improve. He also was forced to change due to injury, although he had changed a few times prior to that for other reasons. It is impressive. But I would argue that Butch and Tiger's relationship was ended due to a personal downfall, not a golf swing one. I cannot discuss what I know on here, but let's just say there was a falling out. Either way Tiger is a guy who continues to attempt to improve. He did well under Hank despite playing military golf off the tee due to his backswing position and whatever it was he was trying to do on the downswing. I do see some amazing things in the short time that he has worked with Foley and Carraher on some more technical aspects. Only time will tell if the S&T type route will work for Tiger. But so far he has posted some good scores, combined with some not so good ones. Seems to be finding it and then losing it. I would argue based on his track record, he will find it again and soon. But for how long seems to be the question.
There are great things going on in the teaching of the game right now. That is for sure.
There are great things going on in the teaching of the game right now. That is for sure.
Yep. I see it evolving and now days on tour you do not see as many unorthodox golf swing as you did 20 years ago. The technology and knowledge is improving and I think the depth of golfers now is much better.
Rory, Jason Day and some of the young kids really have solid swings. Looking at the next generation after them who I work extensively with in Singapore I think the trend will continue.
Take two kids with talent. The kid that is technically better is going to perform better. The other kid will have his days but over 72 holes, over a season and over a career, I have to put my money on the kid with the better technique
I then see the mental skills get stronger as a result of these positive experiences with the good technique. Not always the case but as a general rule
Guys, discussion is gd but don't start flaming. There are reasons why Butch is a celebrity coach and we are nobodies.
We are not privileged to train alongside Natalie with Butch and all these criticizing is really meaningless as we don't know the full story. Butch must have his ideas and of course would have experimented(there are so much technology in coaching golf now!) but we will never know.
I am sure the pros in the forum wouldn't like it when ppl post videos of their students and criticizing all the flaws and attributing them to the pros. Let's refrain from flaming ppl and discuss swing techniques instead.
Like it when sunny said we are nobodies. Which is very true. We are not at a level to comment cos we are not even at the level to be carrying golfbags for these golfers. So comment on swing. I believe RSS has no bad students cos he seems to have all mistakes rectified. So maybe during ssn, we can film somebody on the range and we can share the comments.
DRGjr72 Senior Golfer
Posts : 486 Join date : 2011-02-14 Age : 51 Location : Singapore
One of my last experiences as a professional was meeting and hitting balls with Natalie at the Kingdom facility at Taylor Made in Carlsbad. The tour range at that time was closed for anyone only on staff, now they have lessed the reigns a little bit. Not only was she one of the nicest people you would ever meet...she actually hit it pretty well. Her shots were crisp and diretion was very consistant. For someone with her fame and status on the womens tour I have to say she was very down to earth and quite likable. She just wanted to talk golf, hit some shots, and get her gear in shape for the season. Just like many other golfers out there. Her action is quite unorthodox, but she hits it where she wants to...and that is part of the challenge of golf.
While she might get away with some things...the bottom line is she won an LPGA event and has made a career at it. I don't really care if her swing is not the best or the prettiest. She figured out what works for her and goes with it. Butch will help her the best he can and that will be that. Whether she never wins again or not...bottom line is she did what everyone strives for. She was succesful at her career choice and has made enough money to retire on. At the end of the day....golf is a game or sport. At the professional level there are people who are trying to make a living, people who are making a career, and people who are making history. Where she falls is still to be seen..but at the end of the day if she is happy with her life......who really cares if her swing does not look as pretty as X,Y or Z. It does not matter to me. She has made a career in an industry that is super hard to be succesful at and has done it for a little bit...with a less than common action. Kudos to her and her talent to make it where she has.
Subject: Re: Natalie Gulbis Swing Sequence 
Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:41 pm
